Ask A Woman: Someone get Maury Povich on the line…
If you’ve got a question that needs the female treatment, chances are you’re not the only one who wants to ask it. Beth is our source for the answers. From opinions on men’s style to decoding the sometimes mysterious ways of women, she’ll take on a different question every Thursday. She also might provide an answer without waiting to be asked. That happens from time to time too. Click here to get to know Beth, then get in touch with her by sending your question to: askawoman@dappered.com .
Hello Beth,
I have a work colleague who I have a crush on. We have spent a lot of time together and have become very close. We talk constantly and text all day. The problem is she has a boyfriend, and I am married but in a long distance relationship that is not working out. I think she may be interested but she respects the situation. Should I attempt to take our relationship to the next level or just simply remain friends and see what happens?
Craig
Hi Craig,
Wow, there is a lot going on in your email. You have 1) your own marriage 2) the fact that your co-worker is in a relationship 3) uncertainty about whether this woman is even interested in you 4) the messiness of dating a co-worker. If you feel jumbled while reading this response, trust me, I felt jumbled while writing it.
Call me old-fashioned but before you even think about pursuing another woman, you need to deal with your marriage “that is not working out.” It’s hard to tell what you mean by that—have you hit a rough patch but there’s been no decision made about the future? Or are you separated and there’s an understanding that dating other people is okay? Or are you just waiting for your divorce papers to be finalized? Unless both you and your wife have agreed that you no longer want to be together and that seeing other people is acceptable, and you’re actively pursuing the dissolution of your marriage, you need to put your dating plans on hold.
Having this failing relationship as a part of your current emotional, financial, or legal life is going to make anything you pursue with anyone else, very complicated. For instance, if I were your co-worker and considering dating you I might be concerned that you’d eventually treat our relationship with the same disregard. Not to mention that all of this could complicate your relationships with any mutual friends you share with your wife (who might be horrified that you’re dating while still married), or your future relationships with your co-worker’s family and friends (see previous parentheses). Finally, being unhappy in your marriage might make it seem like a new relationship is a necessary balm to soothing your pain, but it could be a mistake to start something new before you’ve had a chance to get over whatever happened between you and your wife.
A word to the wise, dating your co-worker can get…complicated.
Setting all of that aside is the fact that your co-worker does, in fact, have a boyfriend. Is it possible that you’re misconstruing friendship for serious interest on her part? Knowing nothing else about this scenario, I have no idea either way, but I think it’s something to ask yourself honestly. If you think there’s real potential there, and you’re being responsible about how you’re handling the end of your marriage, you could tell her how you feel in an honest, respectful (i.e., don’t try to make out with her) conversation. If you’re wrong about her feelings, it will may ruin your friendship or at least make it very awkward for the foreseeable future. If you’re right, I hope you’ll wait until she’s ended things with her boyfriend before you carry on.
Finally, before jumping into anything with this woman, find out what your company’s policy on dating in the workplace is. If it’s not forbidden, keep in mind that if you do date this woman and it goes south, it can make for a pretty uncomfortable working environment. Even the most mature adults with the best intentions can become petulant when hurt romantic feelings are involved.
-Beth
Got a question for Beth? Send it to: askawoman@dappered.com
Ummm, Craig… *smack*
I’m not typically so blunt, but that letter leaves no reason to believe that anyone has attempted to save that marriage. Divorce was never mentioned in the letter so it stands to reason that nobody has discussed it. That should be priority number one, and questions regarding dating a co-worker should be a non-issue until that’s done. Are you just looking for someone to tell you that it’s ok for you to cheat on your wife?
(I know there are civility rules, but geez… It’s hard to stay civil when I read that…)
Craig, if you’re being lured out of your marriage by possible interest from another woman, quit your job and give everything you’ve got to your wife. You’re better off losing your job than losing your marriage.
Best “episode” yet! This is like a soap opera lol. Get your popcorn ready. Seriously though Craig, listen to the guys below.
I never chime in on these because I let people screw up their own lives in peace. But I have to offer this:
It sounds like you aren’t talking about an affair, you’re talking about a serious relationship. If that’s what you’re looking for, a successful one (in theory) would involve two already-complete people partnering together.
Ask yourself, are you a complete person if you’re already married? Is she if she has a boyfriend? Neither of you have yourselves completely together as individuals to offer someone else. So whatever you both would be when you entered a “relationship” would change as it progressed. Thus, you both would change as it progressed, and what each of you were attracted to when the relationship began would be gone. Conclusion: you’re attraction for each other won’t be there for long if you actually do get in a relationship, and it’s doomed to fail.
Also, look up what a “crush” is and realize it for what it is. You probably should also deal with you’re marriage like Beth suggested.
There are only 3 responses so far, but… geez. Get off your moral high horses. How on earth can you possibly know that Craig is better off losing his job than his marriage?
I have a feeling the Dappered demographic is too young to have had much experience with serious marital rockiness (which, by the way, is well-night inevitable if you’re married). Beth is right that you should first try to work on your marriage–assuming, that is, you both want to. Sometimes there are very good reasons for one or both parties not to want to, so it makes no sense to speak in absolutes about the virtues and sanctity of marriage.
It sounds like Craig is fantasizing about this crush as an exit strategy from his marriage. Just be mindful that a crush when you’re both attached, or even an affair, are radically different things than actually dating and sharing a life together. Both have an intensity that day-to-day life can’t possible have. Chances are half of what attracts you to this woman is the simple fact that she’s not your wife. A life with her, while it could of course work out, is not all that likely to (as most relationships aren’t) and not going to be a fairy tale, either.
Craig, surely you understand that Beth has better uses for her time than this.
Unless you are in a House of Cards-style open marriage and your long-distance-spouse is totally okay with you pursuing relationships with other people, you need to work on your marriage. Now. Before you go about deliberately undermining other people’s relationships.
By “work on” I mostly mean get an amicable divorce, since frankly I think your current spouse is probably better off without being legally shackled to someone who is not remotely (pun?) invested in the relationship and apparently has no respect or understanding for ordinary social boundaries.
Yet people continually say how gay marriage shouldn’t be allowed…but there are things like this always happening, but they are OK. SMH
I’ve never cheated on a GF but I’ve never been close to being married, partly for reasons like this. I’m going to wait until I’ve grown up and learned my lesson about external beauty.
Maybe they should make people put down a fraction of their income as a security that they won’t get divorced and they can have it back after 15 years or so. That might force people to try a little harder rather than typical 1st world attitude of “it’s too hard I quit”.
You’re married but in a long distance relationship? Job relocation? Some sort of practicum/post-doc internship? It is important for you to assess the situation (you’re marriage) before making an decisions regarding your coworker.
You really need to consider a lot of other variables before pursuing a relationship with your coworker (i.e.- Are you committed to working on the marriage?) You also need to consider how a possible relationship with a coworker will impact your work-life. For example, if things don’t turn out with your coworker, how will your work environment be impacted.
Even if you and your wife separate, is dating a coworker even worth it? That of course, is ultimately your decision.
“serious marital rockiness” is “well-night (sic) inevitable if you’re married”? Er, no. Speaking as someone who is a grown person, married over 11 years, and with lots of married friends…no. Based on your user name and some of the other comments in your post, I suspect that you feel you have been wronged by someone, and I sincerely wish you peace.
Agreed. I just hope his wife isn’t blind-sided by the circumstances.
Who said things like this are okay? Confused why you even brought up the issue of gay marriage.
A wise man once told me “don’t shit where you eat!”
Never poop where you eat…NEVER! That is, of course, unless your accidentally installed a toilet in your kitchen.
Worst idea ever. You’re risking your job, your health, your dignity, and pretty much every relationship in your life, and you’re not even 100% sure she’s interested.
I think his point is, in a country where people get married at a drive thru, or feel justified in asking if it’s OK to “date” your taken co-worker when you yourself are married, why are gay people the real threat to the “sanctity of marriage?”
Or (House of Cards, S2 SPOILER alert) find yourselves a Meechum and get freaky.
(More spoilers) I predict Meechum to be the next season premier casualty.
I can see it happening. I can also see the secret-service-intalled security cameras in the Underwood home leading to problems for the new prez. Although, in a series where the imagined American public is more outraged by shady trade practices tha abortions, perhaps Frank will ease past any controversies involving his sexual practices and preferences. It’s such a pulpy show, but I can’t stop watching.
You took the words out of my mouth. A lot of us feel like pulling our hair out because our gay friends getting married is considered a mortal threat to the bedrock of civilization, while straight asshats are free to pee all over the sacred institution of marriage with no sociopolitical repercussion.
I think what shad0w4life was referring to was that many of the people that are staunchly against gay marriage are seemingly okay with divorce like it is a casual fact of life. According the the Bible, both are sins, and there are no different levels of sinfulness that would make homosexuality worse than another sin like lusting after another woman mentally (something 99% of men do on a daily, if not hourly basis). I personally feel like some “Christians” give us a bad name when they hypocritically put so much effort into judging others for one sin while turning a blind eye to their own sins.
I’m not sure if it’s a spoiler to talk about what happened in the British series, but…so far they’ve followed that general arc fairly closely. Based on that, I’m not so sure Meechum’s going anywhere.
Married, started law school the day after my wedding (how’s that for a stressful start?), and now with three kids. Without getting too personal, I know about serious marital rockiness. My main point is that if Craig pours himself into his marriage, he might find that, after a lot of hard work, his relationship with his wife improves. I know. I’ve been there.
Funny. Cold as ice…but still, very funny.
A few years ago when I was in college, my girlfriend and I had a house that we rented together. We had been together for a little over a year when I developed a crush on one of my classmates who had a boyfriend, was fairly attractive, enjoyed talking to me and sent me texts off and on. Things weren’t all sunshine and roses in my relationship, admittedly, moving in together so early was bittersweet, and it was fairly obvious I had this crush. It put even more strain on my relationship, but I “loved” my girlfriend and didn’t want to give up on what I had and put so much time and effort into. At the end of the year, Ms. Crush changed majors and I never heard from her again, turns out that being good at class and being willing to help out an attractive female is why she talked to me, and I wasn’t quite as super nerd as the rest of the guys in said class (IT courses). I think Beth’s first paragraph is great. You really need to re-evaluate if there are issues, and get to the root of the problem. Is it the distance? Do you love her (your wife, not Ms. Crush)? Does she love you? Would either, or both, of you be willing to pack up everything you had to move back in together?
My college relationship ultimately ended over the last list of questions, it turned out to be a nearly 4 year relationship but after graduation we were 4+ hours apart and neither of us cared to move to the other, seeing each other once a month was too much to handle and we grew apart. I would have loved to fix it but when I realized it was as dire as it had become, it was too late. I understand that the distance can be hard, and that crushes happen when in a committed relationship, but a crush will pass on, you really need to focus on the one you love, or figure out if you even do love her.
Better to be blind-sided by reality now than to live in ignorance and get blind-sided by reality later, IMO.
So, in short, your response is “everyone get off your high horse, but yeah I agree”…
Urinal. And it. Is. Awesome.
Rattling off the risks like that made me realize there’s a Bill Clinton joke in this situation, somewhere.
Yeah pretty much what everyone said regarding the gay marriage part, it’s a hot topic. Eg. some people claim it will ruin the sanctity of marriage, when straight people are doing an ace job of that already.
This guy obviously thinks it might be OK for him to do this. If you look at how movies, media, and just society portrays cheating, there’s no real repercussion if he did in his mind.
And accurate.
Clean up your own backyard first friend…
Watching Newt Gingrich trying to defend the sanctity of marriage is perhaps the most bewildering thing in the world.
Forget the coworker and wife you don’t realize you are married to and start pursuing The Woman Who Wants You to Pay for Everything front a previous column. It works out, it would be addition by subtraction for the rest of us.
As Beth addressed, there’s a bunch of stuff going on here. I think her breakdown of the major issues was roughly right, although I’ll offer a colder analysis of the situation / an argument that the current marriage / new flirtation shouldn’t be evaluated separately (although my gut reaction is the same as most commenters – that the existing marriage is, one way or the other, the priority here, and the other factors (new flirtation, potential partner’s relationship status, potential partner’s co-worker status) are secondary).
There’s a pretty rational way of looking at marriage (think in Economic terms – market stuff, “opportunity cost”, e.t.c.) that’s contrary to what a lot of us are raised to believe. The idea from that perspective is that marriage is just a way of leaving the dating market / increasing the price (social and fiscal) of leaving the relationship. In that sense, the rational decision here is for Craig to put a value on his marriage working out, a value on his marriage not working out, and assess the probability of his marriage working out. That’s one side of an inequality. The other side is the (expected) value of the potential new relationship, and the probability of it working out. Let R1 be the marriage, R2 be the new relationship, P(X) reflect probability of relationship X succeeding (and correspondingly P(!X) =1-P(X) = probability of relationship failure), and V(X) reflect the value of the relationship (if it succeeds, with V(!X) reflecting the value of the failed relationship). Let V(F) denote the value of the friendship with R2, assuming no attempt at establishing a relationship is made.
Assume we have a choice, and can pick one or zero relationships to pursue, and the consequence of picking a relationship is that the other will definitely fail. We’re ignoring, for the sake of simplicity, the option of simultaneously pursuing both relationships (cheating. Note to Craig: cheaters who ask other people for advice get caught. Which would presumably lead to at least one, and probably 2 failed relationships). We also assume the value of the failed marriage would be the same if you tried to make it work and failed, or just gave up on it now (this assumption could also easily be false).
Sticking with the marriage gives us expected returns P(R1)V(R1) + (1-P(R1))V(!R1) +V(F). Leaving the marriage and pursuing the new relationship gives us P(R2)V(R2) + (1-P(R2))V(!R2) +V(!R1).
Assumptions: V(R1)>V(!R1), V(R2)>V(F)>V(!R2). Further, we assume that the new relationship is appealing enough that V(R2)>V(R1), and because we have less invested in this relationship than marriage, V(!R2)>V(!R1) (note that since the marriage is long-distance, and the new relationship is close (They work together), this assumption may be TOTALLY invalid). To ground these values a little, let’s assume V(!X) is negative.
If we put the probability of each uncertain event at 0.5, we get:
Staying with marriage value: V(F) + (V(R1) + V(!R1))/0.5
Leaving Marriage Value: V(!R1) + (V(R2)+V(!R2))/0.5
So if V(R2)+V(!R2) is sufficiently greater than V(R1)+V(!R1) that the difference exceeds twice the difference between V(F) and V(!R1), then trying for the new relationship is rational. Of course, it sounds like P(R2) is well below 50% (she’s dating someone else), and it’s impossible to assess P(R1) from the query.
Apologies for dorkiness. And to the true dorks among you who note that despite my nickname, this analysis was in no way Bayesian…
I agree with your advice 100%. Deal with the marriage first (even if it ends with divorce). Don’t shit where you eat.
Super interesting that I read the circumstances a little differently though: “Lure” implies bait, and I don’t read any luring by his co-worker — he didn’t write that she is flirting with him nor did he write that she suggested that they do something more.
I see a fish hungry and ready to snap at any flower petal that touches the water. His relationship is not working out and now he’s likely misconstruing close friendship — particularly if he shared that his relationship is not working out and she is trying to sympathize — for something more.
The problem with this analysis is that it assumes that a people, who are emotional, can rationally assess non-tangible aspects of their lives that impose emotions. By definition of “rational” and “emotional,” what you propose can never be done.
That is someone that is feeling negative (e.g., depressed, sad, lonely, anxious) will likely assess that the current situation is worse than in reality. And someone that is feeling extremely positive may misconstrue that things are smoother and happier than in reality (they could be horrible). They will not make correctly balanced assessments.
Hence, the best thing to do is talk to someone that is a 3rd party and can more objective. In this case, a therapist or relationship coach.
edited for clarity.
Certainly humans are irrational, emotions are irrational, and relationships are emotional, and hence prone to irrationality. Further, the analysis I laid out only argues for the new relationship in a narrow set of circumstances (that it’s expected to be significantly better than the existing one, and has a real chance of happening, plus some second order terms relating the value of the non-relationships (Friendship / breakup)). I offered it not because I think it’s what humans do, or even what “should” be done here, but to make a principled argument for a perspective that didn’t seem to get much respect here, and that I had a gut reaction against, but that clearly must be the right choice sometimes.
The issue with your analysis is that your assumptions are just that. We are not talking about assumptions about the modulus of steel or concrete, where if we are off by a few orders of magnitude the theory is still correct because we have measurable quantities as reference. I mean, what is your formula for calculating the probability of marriage failure? The value of friendship? If you can’t start with that, then your equation has no relevance in reality.
Secondly, life is too dynamic. For my marriage, there was a time when I thought my probability for marriage failure was 0% and my wife thought it was 100%. I put a value on our relationship of “pretty important” and she put it as “negative pretty important” Turns out that after working it out, our relationship was worth “ginormous magnitude x excalimundo.”
If we had acted on that early static situation, we would have lost the real value of the relationship (which is superfragalacka boom) simply because we had no clue what the value of the relationship was at that depressing time.
So again, in the end, I see no value to what you proposed. And my wife and I were engineers having taken graduate courses in probability and statistics, linear and non-linear networking theory and decision making.
I can sum it up in one sentence:
If you have a discussion with your wife and you both agree that the relationship is broken.
If you talk to HR and know this relationship with a co-worker won’t blow up.
Go for it.
Sure – any number of parts of my model are A) oversimplified and B) total assumptions with no basis in reality. I wasn’t using it to argue for one thing or another. I was using it to illustrate that there’s a plausible world (world = set of probabilities and values for those variables) wherein the “right” choice is to leave the existing relationship. I felt that that reality (and that is TRUE) was being marginalized / ignored in the comments, and I thought a concrete example (even one missing a lot of essential detail) was a better way to illustrate that than to say “I think you guys should give more weight to the possibility that he should leave his wife”, since that triggers the immediate emotional don’t-mess-with-marriage thing.
As for where those probabilities and values come from, I certainly agree an objective formula is nearly impossible. However, Craig can probably approximate values (he can probably guess whether his marriage can be saved, and to what degree that’s preferable to it not being saved).
As for life’s dynamic nature, sure – but the “right” decision (assuming the model captures the situation) at any point in time can be made (given access to those values at that point in time). Certainly that “right” decision’s rightness is only right to the degree that the world doesn’t change to make it wrong. But assuming perfect access to all relevant data all the time, and free computation / the accuracy of relationship-probability models (which, yes, are completely crazy assumptions), the model can be updated as needed.
As for different actors in the equation putting different values / assessing different probabilities – sure. But the model I put forth was assuming that the wife has some (possibly zero) desire to save the marriage, captured by P(marriage succeeding).
Once again – I’m not suggesting that this is the right way to analyze this situation. I’m suggesting that there are times when the right decision is to cal lit quits (presumably not a controversial view), and that as repugnant as it seems to conventional morality (including my own), the “right” decision there should probably take into account the other opportunities opened up by leaving a spouse. Clearly, there’s a difference between the world in which you see other opportunities, and the one where you don’t – where your spouse may be pretty undesirable, but need only be better than no spouse to be worth staying with (this model comes into play a lot for modeling the decision to divorce very late in life, something that’s happening more and more these days).
Basically, I was using a simple model to argue that the presence of the potential relationship with the coworker can have some influence on the decision to leave the spouse, without Craig necessarily making a “mistake”, from a rational-decision-making perspective. There’s no argument of any kind (at least from me), that we have the information required to assess this, or that the model I’ve put forth is what Craig should use – it’s the simplest model I could find (well, we could ignore the V(F) term) that illustrates my real point – that the opportunity cost of sticking with a bad marriage is real.
You’re absolutely right that Craig may not be in a good position to assess P(marriage succeeding) or V(marriage succeeding). Surely he knows more about them than we do – but just as your perspective was made gloomy by life, his could be too.
I’m just saying that for all we know, the right decision could be throw caution, prudence and conventional morality to the wind and follow his flighty heart (/ penis). I, for one, really doubt that that’s the right decision. But it could be.
I do agree with that.
I wouldn’t even go that far – there are plenty of plausible worlds where both partners in a functional / optimal-match relationship think, simultaneously, that it’s broken. I’m sure that in the middle of fights with my wife, there have been moments that we’ve both felt that it’s broken, even though we both agree, in general, that we’re much happier together.
Similarly, even ignoring the potential for job loss / legal action, the rational move can still be to remain friends with a coworker, rather than make a move, particularly if the friendship is particularly valuable (close in value to the value of the corresponding potential relationship), or the failure of the potential relationship would be particularly disastrous.
Not to suddenly jump to the other side of the argument – I totally agree with your original point that none of this is simple / rational / anyone who explicitly writes out values for the formulae I posted is a moron, and doomed to the dumb decision making of oversimplified rationalists (see Rand corp. 1950s).
I just hate when no one defends the potentially rational, socially repugnant decision. I’m that guy.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that if you start talking to your wife about the possibility of seeing a coworker if you agree that your relationship is broken, she’s going to think that the relationship is broken.
So darn true. Its the hypocrisy that sickens me. Either all in on morality or all out. But you cant have it both ways.
I am a child of a divorce in which my father cheated on my mother (in fact getting engaged to another woman while still being married to her) so I may be a bit biased. I’m assuming there aren’t kids involved. If she hasn’t agreed that you guys can see other people, DO NOT DO IT. I have seen what it does to the cheated on spouse, and it is not pretty.
Marriage? Family? Kids? Man made prisons.
Yeah – just one example of what I mean by saying that Craig may not be able to increase either P(R1) or P(R2), but he can probably increase P(!R1) and P(!R2) to 1 very easily.
As much fun as it is to bash a stranger on the internet, can we just take a step back and realize that we’ve only heard a total of 8 words about Craig’s marriage?
While my marriage is the most rewarding source of joy and frustration in my life, I can’t assume anything about Craig’s. I know there are people out there who are just better off without each other.
That said… Craig, if you’re listening, you really need to work on your sales skills- that wasn’t much of a pitch. Oof.
Well handled, Beth.
Ah, the old “dip the pen in the company ink” debocle. I struck up a friendship/crush with a extremely pretty lady friend at work recently (she works in a different organization and different building so no day to day conflict or interactions really). After a wine and scotch-filled work dinner that we were both invited to, we drunkly adjourned to her place. What an evening. After basking in the post-romp bliss, I look at her bedroom dresser mirror to discover a cute little set of photobooth pics of her.. and her boyfriend. How lovely. I excuse myself to the bathroom, I come back to the bedroom a minute or two later and shes removed the photobooth pics and hid them somewhere. Cute.
.
Craig. You are married. Let me repeat that: *ahem* YOU ARE MARRIED YOU DUMB***!!!
Either fix your marriage, or end it. Wanting to date someone else because your marriage “isn’t working out” is a bullsh*t excuse and makes you a coward who is unwilling to take responsibility for his own (lack of) actions. You can’t even drum up the courage to cheat on your wife without someone telling you its okay. You are a piece of sh*t and a perfect example of the worst of our modern society. I hope you get what you deserve.