Christian Davis is a 24-year-old Los Angeles based writer who up until now has focused mainly on writing about video games. He recently began wanting to dress better, and he’ll be cataloging his process for us here on Dappered. He might be new, but he’s learning quick.
Where I was.
The only time I ever thought I would ever have to break in some sort of clothing was maybe a new pair of leather boots. Jeans though? Never even crossed my mind. For years (a solid 23 of them) I always got mass produced manufactured jeans and was completely content with that. Jeans were that all American, rugged sign of a man and you shouldn’t spend more than $40 on a pair. For me, the durability of those $30 – $40 jeans just wasn’t very long. Leg openings would start to get torn and fray, color would fade rather quickly if not instantly, and my preferred store of choice was JC Penney.
That was years ago, and honestly, I haven’t owned a pair of blue jeans in several years. So when I decided to jump back into the denim world, I was pretty surprised by how much it had changed.
Once I started reading up on all the new high-quality denim, it sounded like everything was raw selvedge Japanese denim with contrast stitching that’s been infused with virgin hair and washed in the deepest crevice of the ocean. All these attributes make them sound way cooler than three pairs of Arizona jeans for $50 from JC Penney. Now, I was down to buy those jeans if I needed to. But in my naivety, I assumed these fancy selvedge jeans would be around $60. Seemed like a bit of a stretch to me (oh was I in for a surprise), but I figured, “How often do I get to wear something with virgin hair in it?! Let’s go and check out these jeans and cop me a pair!”
TWO… EVEN THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR JEANS?! I don’t…I can’t…..how?….why?…..NOPE. NOT BUYING.
I couldn’t fathom the price of wearing a car payment on my legs knowing that I’d inevitably spill barbecue sauce on them. I didn’t’ buy any of the first round of selvedge I looked at, and I ended up giving up for another several months. But I had been bitten by the high-end denim bug, so I set out to try and figure out why these things cost so much.
What I Learned. Selvedge & Raw
The term “selvedge” (or is it selvage?) was omnipresent during my research. I didn’t know what the hell it meant, but I figured it contributed to the price since I’ve never seen that terminology on any of the basic jeans I’ve owned before. The term is pretty simple and refers to the edges of the pant. If you have a pair of selvedge jeans that just means that there’s a clean finish, which stops the edges of the pants from unraveling. With a selvedge construction the pants will essentially last longer, and to many, they have a much better aesthetic (see below).
Showing the Selvedge via Red Cotton Denim
Everything I read also seemed to suggest that owning a nice pair of high-end denim isn’t just the same as owning another garment. Wearing them is an experience which transforms the pair of pants and how they look on you over several months or years. This seemed to be where the term “raw” came in. I hadn’t heard of that before either. I assumed it meant it wasn’t “processed” in some way but I was guessing and using context clues generally associated with food and not jeans. Turns out, I was kind of right….kind of.
Raw denim means that the jeans haven’t been washed after the’ve been dyed during the production; this is also known as “dry” denim. With the raw denim step, this allows for the jean customization which comes into play through “natural distress,” aka wearing them.
The customization is where the jeans gain their own personality and denim heads will be able to tell how you treat your jeans through their distress. There are various patterns that come through your jeans that are caused by different daily functions:
- Combs – Faded lines form around the knees
- Train Tracks – Shown on the outseams of the denim, this pattern brings attention to the selvege by forming two sets of fades that look like train tracks.
- Stacks – Created by having the the inseam a bit longer than the actual leg’s length. That extra fabric then stacks on top of one another and the shoe which causes a fade to form around the ankle.
- Whiskers – Faded streaks that appear around the crotch area.
With a combination of wearing these jeans to no end (every day isn’t uncommon) and no washing, the jeans will form the aforementioned patterns and will be YOUR jeans (see examples over here). No set of jeans will get the same patterns or fade at the same location. For example, if a guy does a lot of lifting in his jeans and bends his knees quite often, he’ll accumulate combs quicker and they’ll probably be more prevalent. They become, in a way, a reflection of you. Some denim experts can even see a story in someone’s raw jeans (what pockets they put stuff in, how often they’re worn, etc…). It’s fascinating.
What I ended up with.
The prices still seemed awfully high. Too high. But then I came across a small brand called Red Cotton Denim.
I found out about Red Cotton Denim by reading Broke and Bespoke’s blog (who was featured in my 10 Menswear Tumblrs to follow post) and it was just what I was looking for. Shop owner Camillo Love makes all the jeans by himself, by hand, and can only make about three to four pairs a day, and learned a lot of this on his own.
That’s a story I can get behind. And at a hundred dollars, it was doable.
I purchased a pair of 12 oz American and they arrived within a couple of days. The price of these jeans from Red Cotton Denim were $100 at the time but have gone up in price since (they’re now $125 on sale). Even though these were a third of the price of some other jeans I had looked at, $100 was still a stack a cash for one pair of jeans in my book. Upon opening the package, three senses were pleased: sight, scent, and touch.
A fresh pair of jeans smells and feels different than the store bought ones. It feels…rustic and genuine and you’re incredibly happy to wear something of this stature. They really do take some time to break in, but once they start to give to your movements, they start to take on a second skin-feel. A second, armored skin.
Currently, I’ve had the jeans for roughly three months without a wash yet and wearing them on basically a daily basis is something new. I don’t even do that with shoes, but with the jeans, I know I’ve got this goal. I’ve already got some of the combs behind my knees and I’m curious to see what the fade will look like over time. Thanks to this process, it definitely makes getting dressed each day a lot easier, that’s for sure. Half my outfit is already picked for me! Nothing wrong with that.
I only own this one pair, so I wouldn’t consider myself a deni-head by any means, but I think I’m grasping why high-end denim is so sought after right now. I also get why people who dive into this admittedly expensive world cherish their jeans so much. And it’s not just because of the price they paid.
Editor’s Note: Many thanks to Christian for the in-depth look of his first high-end denim purchase. That said, many of us (my hand is raised) might still not quite “get” the allure of raw, selvedge denim. So which side of the fence are you on? Leave it all in the comments section below.
I’ve been intrigued with the Selvedge denim, but I haven’t been willing to part with the cash for a pair. I ended up getting a pair of the Levi Shrink-to-fit jeans as sort of a poor man’s Selvedge. I’ve been pretty happy with them, and the only time I actually wash them is when I get food on them, which with kids happens from time to time. I don’t wear them everyday, but usually a few times a week.
I understand the allure of worn-in, fit to your body jeans, but I keep on coming back to ‘raw’ which is likely how my skin will feel breaking these in. I don’t want to but a pair of pre-broken in jeans with fake wear marks, but I don’t want a pair of stiff dark jeans either.
Takes me back to my youth when Mom would buy us Toughskins jeans from Sears. Never again.
By the way, I’m calling BS on some of those examples of jeans. A two year old pair of jeans and you’re blowing out the back pocket and crotch?
$26 for a pair of Levi’s is about my limit 🙂 Jeans are workhorse pants and I don’t want to worry about spilling ketchup on a pair of $100-$300 jeans,
I bought my first pair of higher-end raw jeans a week ago. I went with Nudie Jeans. So far I can say they certainly feel like they are built MUCH tougher than jeans I’ve purchased from Gap or Uniqlo. The downside is a just bought a new car with light colored leather seats. Not.A.Good.Look.
Great article! I don’t wear jeans that often, and was unaware of the Selvedge movement…looking forward to seeking out a pair and checking them out!
Is Selvedge worth it? “Fashion is temporary and expensive. Style is timeless and affordable.” ‘Nuff said.
I’m glad Christian is getting his feet wet in the selvedge denim world, but I’m wondering about his first choice in raw denim. I’ve never heard about the Red Cotton brand – to me, they seem simple and underwhelming for a higher cost than better known denim brands (IE: Gustin, Unbranded). Other brands seem to have nicer sizing, finishing, and a lower entry price.
Take Gustin for example. I may be biased (as I own 8 pairs now), but I believe that the $88 price for their “Cone Crosshatch” that is currently funding would be a much better investment. The important bits would be sizing/fit, fabric, finishing, construction, and cost:
1. Sizing – Gustin doesn’t really use vanity sizing, which Red Cotton seems to. I would have to size down to a 30 or a 32 in the RC model and hope it fits, whereas Gustin’s 33 fits like a 33/34 in the waist from the start. Point: Gustin
2. Fabric – Both RC and Gustin seem to be using Cone’s excellent USA-made selvedge denim. Point: Even
3. Finishing – Gustin uses unique, custom buttons and hardware as well as hidden rivets and a fifth “coin” pocket. Gustin also reinforces high-wear areas with a sewn red bar tack, and half-lines the rear pockets to avoid blowouts. From what little information we have, I can see that RC only has four pockets and uses exposed steel(?) rivets. Point: Gustin
4. Construction – Both Gustin and RC jeans are hand made in/around San Francisco. Point: Even
5. Cost – Gustin’s well-built, arguably better-sized jeans are actually cheaper. Even when you factor in shipping costs and ignore any potential new customer discount, Gustin still comes out at least $25 cheaper. Point: Gustin.
I do understand that Red Cotton is a new, small outfit where one man builds the pair of jeans. I can appreciate that. However, if you look at the purchase as an investment in a quality pair of jeans (selvedge or not), your dollar buys more quality and craftsmanship with a pair of Gustins.
Selveged denim looks sloppy, young, and casual. It makes me think hip/hop and sneakers. It’s a bad look.
You do realize that selvedge is actually *older* and more timeless, right?
1. Not all “raw” jeans feel like sandpaper. Most of mine are just as soft as normal pre-washed jeans. Just keep an eye on the denim’s weight, as heavier denim (15oz. +) tends to be very stiff and scratchy.
2. It’s not uncommon to wear the same pair for months and months without washing. This denim on denim rubbing breaks them down faster than your weekend jeans.
As a technique for finishing the edge of cloth, including but not limited to denim for jeans? Yes. As a way to say “My jeans are superior to yours?” No.
I don’t think I follow your logic here. I also think that you’re focusing too much on the cost and not about what selvage denim really is and why it might be worth it. I am a man of limited means, but I don’t think that items should be deemed “not worth it” just because the price tag is higher than other options. Plus, selvage denim is cheaper than ever, with brands like Gustin and RPMWEST bringing the cost down to below $100. Most of my selvage denim has come from ebay or thrifting for well under retail; options are there if you don’t want to pay the big bucks. Anyway, to me there are always items that are worth investing in – you either need to invest the dough or the time to find them on the cheap. I would rather spend hours searching on ebay for English goodyear-welted shoes at a reasonable price than spend $80 at a department store for a glued up pair, and I would rather take the time to find a good deal on selvage denim than get a $40 pair at JCPenny. I hope that makes sense…I just see a lot of selvage-hate here and I think some of it is unwarranted. To each his own, though.
I’m assuming your last sentence is making the point that two years is too little time to blow out the crotch and back pockets on jeans. I would point out, though, that while I’ve had pairs of jeans far cheaper than average raw denim last far longer than two years, the ways in which I wear them are fundamentally different.
Those guys probably wore those jeans a majority of the time for those two years. It wouldn’t surprise me if in that period, they’d seen 600+ wears — that’s a lot more use than the average pair of jeans sees, imo.
off topic but anyone know what that wingtip/toe cap hybrid shoe is?
Not sure what you mean here. By this logic, is *literally all* style supposed to be affordable, otherwise it’s considered fashion and by extension a mere trend? Because this is not very strong reasoning imo.
I pay more for raw denim, but it has very little to do with my jeans “being better than yours”. Nobody says this when Joe posts a link to a sale suggesting some people might want to spend more than $200 on a suit (e.g. Suit Supply vs. JCF) — the reason being that there are all sorts of reasons to pay more for things, such as build quality, fit, and other general preferences. There is a subjective component to ‘worth’ and I think it’s a little reductive to insist the trend is based purely on snooty jean owners. You’ll find those people in any crowd of people who spend more on things.
I’ve never understood the alure (or price tag) of raw, selvedge denim. I looked at the link in the article (top 13 fades of 2013), and thought that all of them looked terrible. I wouldn’t want to wear any of those. I buy “regular” jeans that don’t have tons of pre-fading, wear, etc because I don’t like the look of that. Why would I want to spend 5x as much for an expensive pair to do the same? Also, why would I want to wear the pair of jeans for months and months without washing just so that it will do that? It all seems a bit ridiculous to me.
I guess chalk me up in the “don’t quite get it” category.
I’m really curious about the break in period and how they soil when you’re wearing them daily without ever washing them. And when you say armored skin, how do they compare in comfort to a regular pair of jeans? I find myself wearing jeans less and less frequently since they’re starting to wear out and my chinos look and fit better than my slowly fraying pair: how long a period of daily wear did it take to start looking and feeling good?
You piqued my interest enough to make me seriously think about buying a pair! Especially since I’m starting to need a new pair anyhow.
Also beware of white shoes while breaking them in.
Prices are getting pretty comparable ($85 for selvedge vs $40 for a pair of levis 501s) so if you’re interested I don’t see why you wouldn’t try a pair out. I’m personally happy with my levis so I probably won’t make the change anytime soon.
W/o looking at the website, my guess is its not vanity sizing and is more of a “shrink to fit” styling. As stated a lot of the denim isn’t washed. The size shown may be either the size before or after shrinking (Depending on if its bigger or smaller than you’d expect)
Just randomly saw this, and I don’t know how legit they are, but apparently Uniqlo is now offering selvedge jeans for $50. http://www.uniqlo.com/us/store/lifewear/men-regular-fit-straight-jeans-selvedge/091103-69?ref=mens-clothing
am I supposed to feel bad for liking hip-hop and sneakers?
Seems like a lot of work to sport a certain style.
Don’t they start to smell after wearing them daily for months or years?
Doesn’t the dye rub off on things, or make your skin blue?
This doesn’t make sense unless this is how you feel about jeans in general. Selvedge denim comes in every cut, color, and style imaginable.
Hey guys!
They’re actually boots from Zara’s “Denim Couture” collection.
thought they might be boots!
I bought my first raw selvage jeans this past December. It’s not a high end brand (therefore it’s not respected in the raw denim & fashion world): I decided to wet my toes in American Eagle’s slim fit. I like it so far.
I’ve also decided to spend in increments, slowly experimenting with each level of price tag. I’ll be investing on some raw jeans that’s around $80-100 (Unbranded, Gustin, N&F) once I break my 6 month non-wash streak win my AEs (which I feel will give some nice fades, really).
Will I only purchase selvage raw in the coming future exclusively? I doubt it. But I know I will expand my selvage raw collection in the upcoming years, experimenting with different brands. I have a few dark washed jeans that are mass produced – that were made from Cone Mill cotton – that I find incredibly comfortable and versatile in wear. Since I have those in my jean rotation it would be silly of me to not wear them even they aren’t selvage, let alone raw.
One thing I promised myself throughout my research of the selvage raw denim world, after reading many comments and putting some reflection: To not take denim seriously. After all, it’s just denim.
more picz plz….and i have always understood the term selvage relates to the looms the denim is produced on. selvage are made on old looms. looms that made our dad’s and grandfather’s 501’s. the old looms produce smaller quantities of denim. when jean makers switched to newer mass production looms many of the old looms were bought by the Japanese, therefore why there are so many Japanese Selvage jeans out there.
haha, I saw the picture and thought, “it’s a cap toe…..wing tip?”
http://youtu.be/mS2IamWpjkE
Only if you are over the age of 25
For my pair of raw jeans, the dye hasn’t rubbed on anything – yet, though some brands are known to rub off more than others (Unbranded, so I heard).
I soaked mine first before I regularly wore them since the pair was unsanforized.
Some steps to eliminate the smell, suggested by those that experienced the odors, said you can spray Febreeze on them or fold them in a plastic bag and put them in the freezer overnight. The smell caused by bacteria would be gone come morning.
“It’s all about the personal ID, man! And about being eco-friendly and having an ethical conscious (save the children from sweatshop labor)!”
Say the denim diehards.
In regards to the smell, they still smell like newly created jeans in my situation. But if they started to stink, I’d have no problem washing/soaking them. I love the long experience of “creating” these personalized jeans, but not at the expense of smelling.
I’ve been more interested than possibly I should about getting into the Selvedge game lately, I suppose the primary reason I have not is far more that my Levis 505 Jeans I bought three years ago are still going strong, haven’t faded and haven’t aged poorly at all.
A voice in the back of my head just tells me – there’s no need! These are great! Seems I usually listen to it.
Look at all the jeans linked in the above post. The commonality of the
jeans is the distressing – they are intentionally worn to create a
beat-up, broken-in look. They all have whiskering, combs, stacks, etc. That’s the point of unwashed denim.
Without the distressing, there is nothing to separate them from any
other non-distressed designer jeans.
It personally does not fit
my aesthetic. I don’t find the distressed look (selvedge or not) clean or age
appropriate for a late-twenties professional. That’s my personal
opinion.
Thats one possible way of wearing it. A lot of people buy selvedge denim, whether raw or not, and just treat it like a normal pair of denim. Wash it after every few wears, hem it to the proper length etc. They buy it because it’s higher quality or like knowing that it’s made in the USA or Japan, etc.
If you buy one pair and wear them daily and never wash them, then they’ll look like the broken in pairs. If you own multiple pairs and rotate them, they’ll look no different than any other pair of jeans.
That’s very close-minded.
Just because denim isn’t washed doesn’t mean it’ll “shrink to fit.” Raw (unwashed) and unsanforized (shrink to fit) are two different things.
After a year (8 months of 5-7 wears a week) mine don’t smell but I think that varies by person, hygiene and genetics.
Yeah, selvage basically means “Self edge” and is from when the looms have a shuttle that carries one long yarn back and forth looping around the outside of the warp. Other looms just shoot the weft through in the specific lengths.
I occasionally kick myself for finding a pair of selvedge Marc Jacobs Wrangler jeans for 10 bucks and just having them hemmed rather than turning up the cuffs to show off my selvedgelyness.
The whole story about Japan buying up all of the looms is actually a myth. The oldest Japanese looms are Toyoda looms and were made by the company that eventually became the car manufacturer Toyota. The reason Japanese denim is held in such high regard is because they have centuries of history of making fine textiles (think silk for kimonos) and brought that knowledge and attention to detail into there manufacturing of denim.
I wouldn’t give Gustin the upper hand on sizing. Sizing will be different for everyone and with Gustin if you mess up the size you can’t get you’re money back. You either have to make an exchange or accept a credit and hope another size or cut works. If nothing works with Red Cotton you can just return them and get a refund.
For this reason I’ve been very hesitant to try Gustin. I keep reviewing their sizing chart and realize that neither of their fits will work for me. But they keep my interest peaked with so many different offerings at relatively low cost. Have you tried anything other brands? I’ve always wanted to know how Gustin compares to some of the other US brands.
Raw and selvedge denim isn’t for everyone. Those that don’t get it will probably never understand the appeal. That’s not a bad thing. Just don’t nock it until you’ve tried it.
Can’t you cuff them and show the selvage either way? Unless I don’t understand the process of hemming, you’re just shortening the length of the inseam. The selvage should run up, almost to the pocket area.
As a late-twenties professional I have to disagree. A fresh pair of raw denim looks just as sophisticated as any other dark wash pair of denim. The examples highlighted are just one extreme. You wouldn’t wear those in a professional setting or anywhere you need to look presentable. It takes a long time and hard wear to get jeans to look like that.
I don’t wear jeans often enough to bother paying that much for a pair. And I certainly am not going to wear jeans every day for years on end. But I splurge on my chinos so I guess there’s no reason for me to judge people who splurge on high-end denim.
Yeah, but then the legs would be even shorter, and look goofy.
Hmmm. So I guess they are too short to cuff, right? What type of shoes do you wear with them?
$85 is 212.5% of $40.
I find your definition of “comparable” to be rather peculiar. Incidentally, a BMW 3-series starts at $32750, and a Hyundai Elantra starts at $16965. That’s only 193%.
Regular shoes. I mean, I certainly could cuff them, I’ve seen people do it, especially when they have impressive socks to show off. I just don’t want to. It’s not a huge regret in my life, just something I’d do differently.
> If you have a pair of selvedge jeans that just means that there’s a
clean finish, which stops the edges of the pants from unraveling. With a
selvedge construction the pants will essentially last longer…
Is that actually true?
Aren’t the edges usually at the side seams? That seems to me to be rather far down the list of places for jeans to wear out.
I maybe be misinformed, but I thought that if you buy raw denim and wash it regularly it will fade faster than “regular” dark denim. Is that not true?
Totally agree with you. I personally dislike the look of really faded jeans. Dark wash denim or denim with a slight fade I like, but not like was shown in the link…
My word that jacket is beautiful…
One of my biggest beefs with Gustin is that they only provide 34″ inseams. That means that I either have to have a gigantic cuff or pay ~$20 to get them hemmed.
I guess I’m in the ‘don’t get it’ camp also. To each their own. While I don’t question the value of a goodyear welt or a canvassed suit, something about denim and expensive just doesn’t add up for me. My shrink to fit 505s and 514s work for times I have to be presentable. My old beat up Wrangler’s do the job when I have work to do. All 3 combined probably cost less than a pair of Selvedge.
Obviously I’m heavily on the denimhead side of the spectrum, but I’m also not made of money, and I’m all about value and am a big bargain hunter, so I favor brands that can deliver the quality I crave at a price I can afford, and ideally I’d like to buy made in America as much as possible. $300 is WAY out of my price range. Gustin has proven to be perfect for me, but Red Cotton, and Luthers also fall nicely into that niche. This is a really nice development, because a couple of years ago, there was nothing in the ~$100 price range that was raw denim made in U.S.A. This stuff coming down to earth is what has made it accessible to me, and probably lots of other folks like me who want quality made in America clothing with the look and fit we like.
It really depends upon the fabric. I like breaking in a stiff crinkly pair of raws, but I recently got a pair of Gustin Italian Greenline, and this is a soft luxurious feeling fabric that reminds me of a fine dress fabric. While the Japanese and Cone tend to make stiff and coarse fabrics which will break in nice and soft, I think the Italian mills tend to go for a more luxurious feeling weave. The Greenline still has lots of interesting texture, with little tufts of weft poking through, but it feels like no other denim I’ve ever felt, and in a good way.
I would argue that raw denim is not a fad. It’s been around since the late 1800s, and has been popular as casual wear since the 1940s. It is only since the mid 1980s, a comparatively short time that “washes” have been popular. The trend of returning to raw unwashed denim is something I’ve been aware of for over a decade, but it’s been around much longer, it’s just that it’s been a niche most people were unaware of until recently when it gained popularity. Now maybe it’s coming more mainstream is a “fad”, but then again maybe it’s a sign that the culture at large is embracing a return less artificially distressed clothing. As far as I’m concerned distressing is a fad that should have died a long time ago. As for feeling superior about ones $300 jeans, any time you have an expensive luxury product you’ll have that, but the trend of selvage coming down to reasonably affordable prices does more to diminish denim snobbism than it does to reinforce it. I still think Levis 501s are great, but I want a higher quality made in America denim, and while I’m willing to pay a bit more for it, I’m not willing or able to pay $300.
Those extreme fades some folks aspire to are actually a lot of work to get and they are on the extreme end of the raw denim spectrum, where you have guys wearing the same jeans every day for a year or more without washing them EVER. On the other end of the spectrum you’ve got guys who will wear them once or twice a week on the weekend or casual friday and wash them frequently. Although some folks are opinionated, neither is the right way or the wrong way to wear raw denim. It’s a personal choice, and however you choose to wear them that will show up in how they fade. If you wear them infrequently and wash them regularly, you’ll get nice even fades. Those jeans with the very high contrast fades and blowouts everywhere have been worn hundreds of times and seldom washed. It takes a long time to get them to look like that, and some guys get a little silly about trying to speed it up, because they are too impatient to let it happen naturally. If you buy a pair of high quality raw denim and wear them how you usually wear your jeans and don’t wash them too frequently, chances are they will be barely faded at all in a years time. All this to say, how they look will be a direct reflection of how you wear them and care for them, and how you wear them and care for them is up to you.
It depends on a number of factors, how the yarn was dyed, etc, but generally speaking it will not fade faster than “regular denim”. The main reason a lot of people say not to wash it frequently is because they are trying to get high contrast fades. If you wash it frequently it will fade more evenly.
Although you will hear many crazy opinions on washing raw denim, my method is as simple as it gets: Wash them when they get dirty. I turn them inside out and wash on cold with a mild detergent and hang dry, though, if I washed on hot and threw them in the dryer, it wouldn’t ruin them, but they might shrink a bit more than I want them to.
Makes sense. But if it fades the same, is there any reason to buy raw denim if you’re not going for the fades?
Ethically made, good fit, etc. You are looking at purely from a cost::benefit whereas people who wear selvedge and seek it out look for more than just a pair of jeans.
Raw denim will start out darker than any dark wash, so if you like dark, that might be a reason right there, but I think the primary reason one might choose to pay more for a pair of raw denim jeans than say a pair of Levis 514 would be quality of construction and fabric. The reason you might choose a 14oz denim from a Japanese mill might be very similar to why you might choose a Super 130s wool from an Italian Mill, because you like the quality, and perhaps you like specific characteristics of the specific fabric in question.
Apparently
Yeah, Unbranded is generally my first rec for people looking for nicer denim
Wearing jeans super snug as is the custom for a lot of people (i.e., size down and make them stretch exactly where they need to) is much of the culprit. Add some biking or a lot of walking and it happens more frequently too.
Comfort depends a lot on the type of denim; I have some pairs that were super soft and almost flannel-fuzzy from the start, and a couple that are heavyweight denim that has the “armor skin” feel. I favor the heavy denim the same way as the horsehide moto jacket I have- breaking it in might be a pain but there’s a unique substantialness once it’s fit to you. That’s not everyone’s thing certainly, in leather or denim.
As others have said, soiling really depends on how you wear them. If you’re foot or bike commuting in a city or doing manual labor they’ll break in faster, but obviously going to get sweaty and need care. If you’re like me and wear them to work on casual Friday, or on the weekends when out and about, they really don’t get dirty THAT quickly unless you spill food or drink on them.
The brand mentioned in the article is intriguing, but I would read over the comments too, and glean some other suggestions since there are a few denimheads besides myself commenting here.
Also skeptical
Probably legit as in yes it’s selvedge, but a thing definitely worth pointing out: The magic S-word isn’t necessarily a denominator of top quality in a market where fast fashion has gotten ahold of it.
That’s not to say those (or any cheap selvedge jean) is necessarily bad, just that ” this is selvedge so it’s better” doesn’t hold.
Uniqlo has been selling selvedge denim for at least 3 years. I picked up a pair in 2011 at their NYC store for I think $50. The quality is okay but I think they use (or used back then) a tiny bit spandex.
I have fond memories of how terrible those toughskins were. THese are nothing like toughskins.
That’s the one major drawback with Gustin – their unique (new) business model doesn’t really allow for a straight up return if you don’t size properly. They’re essentially paying for the fabric and construction costs out of the money they receive; they don’t have any extra income or stock levels to maintain.
They do HEAVILY stress that you measure twice a good fitting pair of jeans before ordering. I did this, and mine always fit well. I would highly recommend you give them a try if you can find a size that fits for you. My advice: size down slightly if you’re inbetween, so the fabric can stretch.
I have not tried any other US brand, as I can’t find them locally. Once I jumped on the G-Wagon, they fit too well for me to go elsewhere.
For us tall guys who normally have to search for longer inseams or have longer pants tailored to fit…sorry, not sorry. 😛
This is the exact reference I use. You buy a high quality suit because the materials and craftsmanship are nicer; this is the same reason we choose raw selvedge denim. It’s a personal choice.
But $400 is 470% of $85, which is the cost of a pair of really high end, traditional selvedge denim.
In a relative sense, the extra $45 to go from “made in Pakistan” Levis to “made in USA” selvedge isn’t that bad when it could be a $360 difference.
That looks to be Unbranded selvedge. They’re probably buying it in superbulk, and reselling it at a discounted rate.
This.
You’re making a different argument – that $85 is reasonable for selvedge when compared to $400 jeans. I don’t disagree with that notion.
However, “Guest” said/posted that $85 jeans are comparable to $40 jeans in term so price.
Also with Gustin you have to wait at least 2 months from time of purchase to when the jeans arrive at your doorstep (time from selection to be backed + time to make and ship).
This model is fine if you aren’t in a rush and know your size but if you want/need a pair immediately your out of luck. Personally, I had to pass on numerous interesting denim offerings during the “wait period” because I wasn’t sure if the first pair I ordered would fit correctly.
Gustin does make a quality jean and I would purchase another pair, but to say they are superior to other brands in their price range (Red Cotton, Unbranded, on sale Naked & Famous, etc.) I think is a stretch.
Agreed…Uniqlo tends have high quality, especially for the price because they deal directly with factory’s and buy such large amounts of product.
Now, most of their production is sourced and manufactured in China, so their denim isn’t going coming from Cone Mills (NC) or one of the top Japanese/Italian mills
Well, according to the link, it’s from a Japanese mill, though not one of the oldest out there. They’re “only” 60 years old.
I’m curious about Unbranded, looking at their sizing info, it looks like the straight fit has narrower thighs than the skinny. Is that right, or a typo? Because it doesn’t sound right.
The RT shawl jacket? Yes it is. Yes it is … (heart flutters)
Do you have other brands for recs that are less than $200?
I really only have experience with Gustin, Gap, and Levis in the under $100 selvage category, and the Levis slevage were only under $100 because they were on clearance. Of the three, Gustin is the only one made in America, and it’s also superior in terms of fabric and quality of construction. There are some other “kickstarter brands” similar to Gustin, but thus far none of them has done anything to distinguish themselves to me. Red Cotton looks interesting. Unbranded is an import line made by Naked and Famous that can be had in the $100 range.
That’s a good question and it surely doesn’t make sense. I do know that Unbranded are in the process of revamping their sizing (notice the note below the sizing chart on some cuts) so my tenative guess would be that some cuts have updated measurements and some do not.
I went to Blue Owl (blueowl.us) and compared their measurements for the 2 cuts and they line up about how you expect, with the straight being slightly more relaxed through the leg. Blue Owl check those numbers themselves so I’m inclined to trust them (and they provide sizing charts for most if not all of what they stock, which is invaluable!)
I know you were asking Matt, but I’ll throw in my $.02. From what I’ve seen, the major difference between sub-$100 selvedge and sub-$200 selvedge is the choice of fabric and branding. Some quality and/or better construction is possible, but I haven’t personally tested anything above that $100 mark. For me, personally, I can’t justify it yet.
*Sub-$100, you could try Unbranded.
*Sub-$200, you could try 3Sixteen, Naked & Famous, Nudies, APC, or Raleigh.
I have sent them an email asking for clarification, will report when I get an answer.
Hmm interesting…should have actually clicked the link before commenting…thanks for the correction!
Haha, yeah. My pant size is 32×34 so Gustin is spot on. Now I can’t cuff them if I wanted to, but I’m not a fan of cuffs so no harm, no foul.
Thanks. I was looking at Unbranded – I heard they bleed like crazy, though.
I was eying the Gap raw, tried them out at the store, but decided that the cut isn’t flattering for my butt (too boxy) and my calves are way to thick for even their straight cut.
I was looking Gustin and they look mighty fine. The problem is I don’t live anyway near SF (see username). I have thick thighs and calves, do you think a pair of Gustin will fit me?
Has anyone have experience with getting their raws hemmed? If I get a pair of Gustin I most likely need to get it hemmed, and I don’t want to risk getting it hemmed and making my cuffs look sh_tty.
I have absolutely zero problem with people spending more on quality. I do it myself. There’s a reason I read this blog every day. But find me a article where Joe has posted a link to a sale for a suit and then suggested that you turn the jacket to make sure that everyone can see the label of your suit. What’s the point of the cuff on the jeans in the picture above? You don’t even have to answer. Just look at the caption. “Showing the Selvedge via Red Cotton Denim.” It’s all about SHOWING. That being said, I have zero issue with anyone who wants to wear selvedge jeans. It’s your money and if that’s the way you want to spend it, then more power to you. Joe asked the community a question. Is selvedge worth it? I gave my personal answer. I simply think it’s a fad. I was born in 1965. I’ve seen everything from bell bottoms and tie die to leisure suits to parachute pants and Member’s Only jackets come in and go out. They all had their supporters who insist that this is different and people who aren’t in to it just don’t get it. Meet me back here in twenty years and let me know if you still feel the same.
I’ve got pretty big legs, and like Gustin’s fit, but I also liked Gap Straight fit, so I don’t know what to tell you about Gustins. I find them slightly slimmer than 501s. Some people say they are cut similar to 514. If you have a pair of jeans that fit you well, compare it to the fit guide on their website, and see if there is anything there close.
Actually that isn’t true. Selvedge isn’t the same as Shrink-to-Fit and if anything, they stretch out like leather shoes.
Gustin is a fantastic buy. Made in SF of the best fabrics, usually for under $100. Can’t beat that. I highly recommend going through their sizing instructions (measure your best fitting jeans).
Anyone ever tried JackThread’s in-house brand Goodale’s raw selvedge denim? They’re $50 a piece and probably made in China, so I’d expect a true denim head to scoff at them, but I’ve been pretty happy with mine. I bought two pair (one dark blue and one dark grey), but only wore one pair for a while to break them in. They were incredibly rigid at first but broke in well after 20 or so wears. I didn’t realize how well they had broken in until I tried the other pair on for the first time. One piece of advise I wish I’d taken even more seriously was to never wash them. I went a long time but finally had gotten them legit dirty and threw them in the wash by themselves in case the die ran. The die definitely did run (especially visible on the interior where it wasn’t previously dyed but now was, as well as in some creases on the exterior looking a slightly different shade of dark blue now. All in all not really noticeable but I’ll definitely figure out another approach in the future! Here’s a link in case anyone wants to check ’em out – http://www.jackthreads.com/search/goodale%2520selvedge
I have plenty of experience seeing as I’m pretty short. It really depends on the look your going for. Do you want your cuffs to be big or thin, single or double? Do you plan on soaking before you get them hemmed or are you planning to wear them for a while before the first wash/soak? If you plan on waiting, I would leave an extra inch because all raw denim shrinks. It doesn’t matter if its sanforized. Some denim more than other, but it will shrink a little. It’s always best to go a little longer than you think is necessary because you can always have them shortened again but you can never have them lengthened.
My advise is to first decide on the look you’re going for. Have someone help you adjust the jeans to your desired length then add the necessary few inches for the desired cuff size and to account for future shrinkage. Then go to a tailor you know and trust. Definitely someone you’ve used before or at least someone you can easily communicate with. The last thing you want is a language barrier.
I would avoid having the original hem sewn back onto if they offer. It looks funky when cuffed. You also don’t need a fancy chain stitch like the one that comes on the hem of a pair of Gustins. A normal lock stitch done by any good tailor will do. If in the future you want a chain stitch you can always have the current hem removed and restitched.
A chain stitch looks good and will give you a cool fading effect around the hem called roping but ultimately its not necessary. Its more expense and harder to find someone with the proper machine. A chain stitch also isn’t as durable because it uses only one thread and once it breaks the whole thing comes undone. Plus the thread sticks out more than a lock stitch and will break easier do to the increased friction.
I hope this helps. If you have any other questions, reply to this thread I’ll be more than happy to answer for you.
Thanks for the reply. I might take a chance if they offer a black on black or indigo on indigo. I’ve been kicking myself for not jumping on an black warp and indigo weft they recently offered.
I’m a big fan of Rogue Territory for the same reason you like Gustin. They fit me so well its almost not worth trying anything different.
I have pretty big legs as well, and find Gustins to be a good fit, but I also found Gap straight to fit well. I buy them a bit snug, and stretch them to fit. otherwise my jeans tend to get kinda baggy as they stretch. Your best bet is going to be to measure a pair that fits how you like them and compare to Gustin’s fit guide https://www.weargustin.com/fitguide
Incidentally I looked at Red Cotton’s fit guide and there’s no way their cut will work for me. The waist is vanity sized, so the 32 waist would fit me alright, but I’d have to size up to 36 (38.5″ waist) to get the thighs and calves to fit me.
I think the biggest shortfall most people see in the 501STFs is that they’re fairly loose by today’s standards (very loose, I’d say, if you follow Levis’ own sizing instructions) and looking at a little higher tier denim like Unbranded or Naked & Famous give you some options with the fit; if you have unusual proportions you may find a particular brand suits where nothing else will. Levis is catching up in this respect to some extent (The 508s, for example, fit similarly to my favorite Naked & Famous cut.)
The other thing, and obviously the value is quite subjective, is that a brand like Naked & Famous may release some standbys each season, but also offer experiments with denim weights, colors, and so on. The tactile experience and aesthetics of that type of unusual denim is pretty rewarding to me personally.
(Aside: Levis certainly has a vast array of cuts, denims, and washes, but there’s a great amount of chaff to sift through as I’ve said, and some inconsistency in fit even in the same cut. Besides the STFs, look for the “water-less” mark for Levis offerings that are afaik sort-of-raw.)
Playing the age card is a little unfair. Having said that, I don’t particularly disagree. Selvedge denim, while not being a “trend” in itself imo (this has connotations that I think are inappropriate), is wrapped up in the larger artisanal movement that’s changed a lot about how people buy their clothing. I don’t think this is permanent and so I’m inclined to agree that selvedge isn’t timeless. I disagree that the fact that it’s not timeless means that it’s just some overpriced trend that people only get into for bad reasons.
The whole “showing” can be silly, yes. Some people are like that, but most people I know who cuff their jeans do it because they think it looks cool to cuff their jeans. Among the types of people who are most likely to buy a pair of raw denim, tons of them cuff even when they don’t wear selvedge, so it’s more of an aesthetic thing I’d argue. I personally don’t cuff, as I think it looks cleaner when you don’t.
Good luck with that RT jacket. It was a limited run and sold out in days if not hours. He does new runs of denim supply jackets periodically and they sell quick but that shawl collar was an exclusive collaboration. Most likely you won’t see that same jacket again. His other supply jackets are pretty awesome though. I’m a big fan of Rogue Territory and although its a little pricey the quality and level of detail make it worth every penny.
This is interestingly amusing, but as a resident of the Deep South (in a progressive university town/state capital), I can’t even imagine going that long without washing jeans. Maybe if I wore one pair one day a week, but even then, they’d get skunky in a hot summer month. They may look really cool (and I won’t wear them to work if they look rough), but the smell would drive my coworkers, friends, and any intended friends away.
Thanks for the reply. My STF501’s and a pair of 514 (rigid wash) are my favorite jeans, and I imagine if I ever got into selvedge I would have some new favorite jeans, however I’m too big right now for selvedge (I don’t think I’ve seen any of the raw/selvedge stuff in anything bigger than a 38 inch waist), so it’s a bit of a moot point, though I was curious about what it all meant.
Agreed. To each their own, but $300 jeans to me are like if my wife bought $300 shoes or purses. Not nearly enough marginal utility.
Selvedge denim is like a heart of the hide baseball mitt.
I have a pair of imogene + willie jeans. My advice would be to not get them hemmed until after you’ve washed them. I got mine hemmed when I bought them a year ago, and now that they’ve been washed they shortened up a bit…
Thanks.
“die”… shame on me. Oh well, at least I got “dyed” right.
They are the perfect length with no cuff… If I cuffed them, they would be too short
They are the perfect length with no cuff… If I cuffed them, they would be too short
What a tedious load of drivel this article was.
Just a regurgitation of every other ‘old hat’ article relating to selvedge denim… tell us something we don’t know! And also, the idea that selvedge denim costs in the region of 4 times the price of a crappy pair GAP of jeans due to its durable selvedge is a complete fabrication (excuse the pun!). How many pairs of cheap jeans have you thrown away due to frayed side seams… I’m guessing NONE! Selvedge denim costs more because it generally isn’t woven or sewn together in third world countries where workers get paid a pittance and the shuttle looms that weave selvedge are less efficient, therefore production costs are inflated. The reason that you SHOULD buy a decent pair of selvedge (and not all selvedge is decent), is for the high level of craftsmanship and character of the fabric. Get your facts straight, for the love of god.
Let me see if I understand this whole selvedge denim thing. Jeans made from denim woven on old inefficient looms; $200.00. Jeans made from denim woven on modern efficient looms; $20.00. Isn’t that like paying $200,000 for a new Ford Focus because it was assembled using automotive robots from the 50’s instead of the $20,000 it costs using modern automotive robots to assemble it? And what’s with wearing the same pair of jeans everyday?