Ask A Woman: “Once I ran to you…now I run from you…”
If you’ve got a question that needs the female treatment, chances are you’re not the only one who wants to ask it. Beth is our source for the answers. From opinions on men’s style to decoding the sometimes mysterious ways of women, she’ll take on a different question every Thursday. She also might provide an answer without waiting to be asked. That happens from time to time too. Click here to get to know Beth, then get in touch with her by sending your question to: askawoman@dappered.com .
Why does every single woman date an asshole? We don’t swear a lot here on AAW or Dappered in general, but I think this occasion calls for it. If a woman is lucky, she dates only one douche. For some women, unfortunately, this becomes a pattern, something that is really disheartening to witness. I think most women manage to outgrow it, though. Here’s why they do it in the first place.
Most assholes are charming. Seriously charming. It’s the truth. Think about guys you’ve known who always seem to get the coolest, smartest, best-looking women, even though they don’t treat their female companions very well. They probably have confidence. They probably dress well and take grooming seriously, even if they don’t have natural good looks. They know how to talk to anyone, maybe they have a great sense of humor, maybe they play guitar and always look deep and brooding like they’re contemplating the world’s suffering. Charm. This is universally appealing. Everyone is attracted to people with charm, men and women alike.
So there’s charm. That’s how they reel you in. But why do women stay even after the asshole-ness has presented itself? Because when a man is an asshole, in whatever form that takes, it makes a woman want to work harder to get his approval and love. BLECH. I hate myself for writing that, but it’s true. Same goes for men who date assholes (female or male). You’ve seen your friends date women who are terrible to them and they just seem to take it, right? This is why. When someone you deeply care about is cold to you or disrespectful to you–usually with no warning–it feels awful. You’ll do anything to get that warmth and caring back. And oddly, if you can’t understand WHY they’re being cold to you, it makes you feel even more desperate to fix it. So you stay, and you try to make it work.
My favorite ode to dating a jerk…
The good news, again, is that most women put up with this one time only. They get into it, it’s something they’ve never experienced before, so they stick it out, confused, until something forces their hand and the relationship ends. Then they spend the next six months wondering…what the hell was I thinking? And the next time they meet a man like this, they recognize the signs and run like hell.
So that’s the scoop. For all the men out there thinking, great, I’m a decent guy who only wants to treat women with respect, and I have to watch all these douches mistreat their girlfriends until they wise up…do NOT lose heart. After I broke up with my asshole boyfriend, I was on the look out for NICE. I wasn’t interested in dudes who said they would call and then waited three days. I wasn’t interested in dudes who made me work for their attention. So I ran right into the arms of the nicest guy I’d ever met and there I stayed. Women who make the mistake of dating an asshole will be all the more grateful and devoted when they find a decent guy.
-Beth
Got a question for Beth? Send it to: askawoman@dappered.com
I agree, but this shouldn’t stop you from changing if you are having bad results with women. I had to become a bit more of an asshole (or at least adopt some jerky characteristics) in order to make it in the dating world. The problem is too often that guys get the idea that respecting women means never making any decisions for them (“well where do you want to go on our first date”), never disagreeing with them, and generally just being an emotional outlet for them instead of inspiring emotion in them.
I was seeing a trend in a girl’s treatment of me, and I told her, “I’m not your gay friend. I have feelings for you, and I don’t need to hear about your personal life. I’m sick of being treated like girl’s older brother.”
Assertive, and it felt right for me to put my foot down.
Once I started making decisions, things got a little bit better for me.
“and generally just being a doormat” would be a less charitable way to put it.
A lot of the things that crop up under the “women go for assholes” meme really distill down to ‘being assertive,’ ‘having a spine,’ ‘daring to disagree,’ and so on.
It seems so simple once you get there, but when you are lonely and desperate and inexperienced, something as simple as disagreeing with a potential date seems like a terrible idea.
The problem with a “Nice Guy” is that he isn’t nice. A Nice Guy isn’t kind for the sake of being kind. Rather, he imagines that there’s an unspoken contract between him and others (e.g. a woman) where he is entitled to love/approval in exchange for his kindness. He tries to use altruism as a way to make women fall in love with him. When he doesn’t get his payment, he feels cheated and often angry at his counterpart. This behavior is extremely manipulative and objectifying, but feels justified to the Nice Guy. If you feel like you never get women because you’re a Nice Guy, read this paragraph again and reflect honestly. Do you do this?
As Beth mentioned, being kind is the best way to ensure long-term success with women. But kindness can’t come with hidden strings or ulterior motives. And you can’t expect to avoid the friend zone if you’ve been nothing but friendly. Make your sexual intentions known up-front. There’s nothing wrong with hitting on a woman. It’s a compliment. At worst, she’ll turn you down and you can move on.
I was really, really hoping for a better answer to this old question.
You had me up until the “The good news, again, is that most women put up with this one time only” part. Otherwise no concerns.
More importantly, I agree with DXLi’s comment regarding what being an “asshole” and a “nice guy” really means–the definitions for these don’t hold water. Respect her, but also respect yourself, and things should work out just fine eventually. If you’re looking for immediate “results”, go read up on being an “alpha” or take one of those silly pick up artist classes… I’m sure they’ll help finding you a good match.
EXACTLY! The Nice Guy rubs everyone as disingenuous. Nice Guy reeks of false modesty. They have entirely different set of behaviors based on the sex of the person they interact with. They treat every woman like a Disney Princess thinking thats what she expects – because “women should be treated that way”.
What they fail to realize is how objectifying and sexist that is. Juxtaposed against the Nice Guy, the Asshole wins simply because he has a semblance of REAL personality.
The Nice Guy will tell a girl she looks pretty when she obviously has her period, doesn’t have make up on, didn’t do her hair, and is wearing flip flops. The asshole will crack a joke about how rough she looks today.
There is also usually some daddy and mommy issues involved in this dynamic. If a girl doesn’t know how a man should treat her due to a lack of example and vice verse there is usually going to be a recurring issue. Like Phantoom said though, you do have to add a little jerk to yourself if you are a guy to be successful because that little bit of jerk is perceived as confidence and strength which does more than the perception of weakness and indecisiveness.
so basically let a asshole diddle you for your virtue and then run into arms of the incase of emergency safe guy in a quasi-cuckold kind of way. This is why nice guys become assholes later on in life.
yeah some are. but some are actually nice and naieve too without the ulterior motive of some greater reward. These guys are called chumps. “it is a far better thing that I have ever done” indeed.
Just a reminder to Dappered’s readers: write only what you’d say to a person’s face. Keep it civil and when you disagree, propose an alternative.
“I don’t need to hear about your personal life” starts to cross the line from assertive to asshole.
Sure, this applies to some Nice Guys, but it’s also a generalization and slightly cynical. There are plenty of Nice Guys out there who are genuinely nice people. They might be a rarer breed than the pseudo Nice Guy you two describe, but I know a good number of them. They are assertive and friendly, know how to frame a criticism or negative notion in a positive way, and certainly not manipulative. And while I would like to say for these men being genuinely nice doesn’t come with any strings attached, it certainly does: if I am nice and caring to you and you treat me like garbage, I will no longer be nice to you (I won’t be mean, but I will end the relationship).
I’m a self-aware, nice guy who isn’t actually a nice guy. Below is a description of how I act and the results.
Uh, so this is me, except I’m a slightly more dangerous breed (and I’m not proud of it). I’m a meh-looking guy who can be witty in the right situations, who dresses well and who has learned to feign self-confidence (despite it being quite low, in reality). I don’t approach girls to hit on them, but I will talk with them, seemingly confidently if I’m in the right situation (typically in a group together and with friends I’m very comfortable with). Sometimes this special-situation-charming attracts girls and they’ll either approach me or give off very obvious signs of attraction without me really doing much direct flirting. I’ll usually only make a move after I can tell with a certainty that I won’t be rejected.
Once I get involved with a girl, they’ll often see through my façade and notice that I appear to be a nice guy (but I’m really not). This attracts the girls even further; “omg, I found a guy who’s confident, witty, charming and nice!” If the girl isn’t all about me, I’ll continue the confidence longer, but as soon as she is really starting to show signs of like me a lot, I default into nice-guy-pampering mode. At this point, the girls really get hooked (who wouldn’t want to be treated like a queen?).
Naturally, when a girl develops the aforementioned strong feelings quickly, they’ll also attempt to escalate the relationship quickly – I’ve experienced this time and again. How to I respond? If they’re the only one I’m talking to, I’ll usually cave even though I may not really want a relationship. Why? My self-confidence is crap. I’m scared they’ll lose interest or find another guy, so I had better lock them up because it’ll probably be a while before I find another pretty girl that’s this interested in me. If I happen to be lucky enough to have multiple girls interested, it’s almost like a ticking time-bomb. Inevitably one or more will try to escalate. If I keep them on ice, they end up identifying what I’m doing and things get ugly. If I tell them no escalation, they probably will look elsewhere.
Once I’ve committed to a relationship, I usually go into super-nice-guy-pamper mode. I think I do this in an attempt to divert all the girl’s attention to me and really get her to fall for me hard. It usually works – I have had way too many girls tell me they love me. Unfortunately, when I often don’t see a girl reciprocate the levels of energy I expend to make them happy, I usually end up becoming upset and bitter. I begin feeling regret, but still am scared to get out of the relationship (“will I be able to find anyone else?” “I don’t want to hurt her…”). Things usually keep getting progressively more serious, and simultaneously worse. Pretty soon, I begin voicing my grievances; actually, now that I think about it, I often end up trying to train the girl; I frequently initiate arguments and once I’ve made my point and gotten the girl to submit (I’m quite good at logic-based arguing) I will try to immediately make her feel better (because I feel better and deceive myself into thinking that I’ve just changed the behavior of hers that I disliked) — nice-guy-pampering usually works. Doing this usually just continues the relationship that I’m unhappy with and didn’t really want – she’s usually unhappy too.
SO, where does this leave me? Well, my confidence sucks and it drives me to continue this detrimental behavior that makes me and the girls I date unhappy (obviously it’s not ALL my fault that my relationships suck, but this behavior is surely a major cause). I know that I need to improve my confidence if I ever want to be able to abandon this detrimental behavior for good. I know that the quickest way to improve my confidence is to start approaching girls and putting myself out there. So what’s holding me back? I don’t have the confidence or determination to push myself out there and do what I know I need to do. Crap.
I wouldn’t say you’re being an asshole and much as preventing yourself from being mistreated. You should both treat each other with respect and consideration. There’s a little give and take in this area, but it can’t be too unbalanced in either direction.
When you say “Nice Guy”, I instantly think of a guy always saying “you’re too good for me!” and just low confidence with the “I’ll never do better” attitude.
I’m too good for you.
I would think that you would be interested in the personal life of your partner, or potential partner.
Insightful post my good man, right on the money.
Good stuff here guys.
I’d prefer to not hear how many times a girl makes out with various guys. Thanks.
Then tell her that you don’t feel comfortable when she shares stories about her love life. Speak to a potential partner as if they were a human being: an equal. Be respectful.
You can be direct and confident without saying that “you don’t need to hear about [her] personal life”.
Your avatar is gay.
The sexual intent is inherent in the asking of said date. To act otherwise is naive.
It’s not a simplification; it’s a specification. “Nice Guy” is capitalized because it refers to a specific personality type. Based on the comments, I’d say we all understand which one that is. It doesn’t refer to any guy who happens to be nice.
I’d also caution against anyone nonchalantly dismissing my points because one doesn’t think one expects anything. If any of you guys has ever become upset with someone because she didn’t reciprocate your feelings, then your expectations might just be subconscious. (I’m not saying that you do this, aglass. But a lot of guys do. I definitely did before I had my epiphany.)
By “sexual intentions”, I don’t mean that you should be grinding up on every bonnie lass. You don’t have to say it explicitly, but she should be clear that you have intentions upon her. A lot of guys don’t want to show their intentions because they’re afraid of being rejected. They think that it’s better to put it off, build up a pretense of friendship, and then try their luck when the girls know them better. This is a mistake. If you want a friend, be friendly. If you want a sexual partner, be sexy.
Fact.
Well I’m on the waiting list to get into Quagmire’s class so I can nail Cheryl Tiegs, so suck on that Mr. Nice Guy!
Thank you for sharing your perspective honestly. It can definitely be a vicious cycle. If you’d like some advice on what to do, I’d say that it isn’t as simple as going cold-turkey into being confident. It’s a gradual process, and you should take gradual steps. I’d recommend grabbing a book to help out. I think No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover may be a good place to start.
Seriously. I wonder if women realize how shitty this is for the “nice” guy. Sure, have your fun with the “asshole,” then run to the nice guy and have him repair the damage. Sounds like a great relationship.
well written article and great responses. agree on the def of “nice guy”. the issue I have w the article is this sentence :’The good news, again, is that most women put up with this one time only”. Maybe it is anecdotal, but I have plenty of women friends who are well into their 30s who put up with all manner of dismissiveness, coldness, lying and downright meanness(yuppie upper middle style meanness, but meanness still) and have done so their entire dating/married lives. Maybe i just know an unhappier group of folks.
Too true. I’d add, though, that you don’t need to act more like a jerk to be successful. Rather, you have to realize that being assertive and putting yourself first do not make you a jerk. More importantly (to this context), women are attracted to men who know how to take care of themselves.
I agree on the assertiveness angle, but that is not enough. Sometimes you have to mildly disrespect them, and that acts like a flame to their moth. It’s crazy, I know.
No offense intended, but I’m guessing you’re pretty young and inexperienced. As you get older and date more, you’ll find that discussing prior sexual experiences with exes is one of the best things for a relationship. You find out what they like and don’t like in a partner, and it helps you to decide sooner whether they’re right for you.
Now that I’ve been married, divorced & had my share of short & long-term relationships, I look back on my youthful jealousies and shake my head. It’s funny how seriously you take yourself, and others, when you’re young and new to love/sex/relationships. It gets much more fun and easygoing the longer you keep at it, and not every loss is a tragedy, but a growing experience.
What’s with the sexism? Guys date women who are assholes too. We all date at least one, and then later, we look back and wonder what we were thinking.
A problem happened to me when she told me all about her sexcapades with her rich (parents), asshole ex-boyfriend, then when I suggested trying some of those, she refused. I’m speaking from limited experience, but it seems to me girls want to have their cake and eat it, too.
If by gay, you mean awesome?
I’m careful with the one’s that date a string of jerks, and then call me to complain about it. I put my foot down hard on that, and it’s stopped. Emotionally, I’m responsible to myself.
Most women manage to outgrow it? That’s mostly bullshit.
“Women who make the mistake of dating an asshole will be all the more grateful and devoted when they find a decent guy.” In my experience, this has not been the case, though I do hope it changes. The last three left me because I wasn’t an asshole, hell, one even left me for the guy who raped her. I sure can pick a winner can’t I?
I think this is ASSuming quite a lot about men who are nice.
Honestly, I think having respect for both yourself and the other party seems to be the best way to approach things. After that, confidence follows, and you end up treating the other person the way they should be treated: with compassion, realness, and enthusiasm. And if you’re lucky, you’ll get that in return.
This was a great book!
I got dumped for the douchebag one time. She sent me an email later that spring saying that she screwed up. I agreed, and walked out of her life.
The ladies love nice guys…they DO NOT like push-overs.
I am an A-hole that has gone through A-hole rehab. I have to voice the other side of the arguement. All you simply have to tell a woman, “hi I’m interested in you.” It is a 50/50 proposition. You just need a modicum of charm whether it is witty, off beat, or shy likable awkwardness, as mentioned. Even when girls end up with nice guys, those nice guys are assertive they are just not d-bags about it. Maybe if you are a nice just take a lesson from an A-hole, just don’t become one yourself. Aferall, nice guys don’t become CEOs of fortune 500 companies and always settle for being the man girlfriend.