Ask A Woman: Chivalry’s not dead, it’s just broke.
If you’ve got a question that needs the female treatment, chances are you’re not the only one who wants to ask it. Beth is our source for the answers. From opinions on men’s style to decoding the sometimes mysterious ways of women, she’ll take on a different question every Thursday. She also might provide an answer without waiting to be asked. That happens from time to time too. Click here to get to know Beth, then get in touch with her by sending your question to: askawoman@dappered.com
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Hi Beth,
I’m coming out of a long and serious relationship and it was VERY expensive. Literally. When we were first dating, I was paying for everything, especially because I wanted her to feel like she was being taken care of. Over time, I just kept paying for our outings, movies, concert tickets, dinners, anything. I felt obligated as “the man” but I also wanted to make my woman feel like she was special and indeed being taken care of. But let me repeat, it did take its toll on my wallet; and being a full-time student, working part-time trying to get my career going, it’s not an easy task.
I’m now ready to start dating again. But when I meet someone new, who pays and when? Better yet, how do I make her feel special, and feel secure myself as “the man”, during the dating period without burning a hole in my wallet? From the first date, dinners and outings in between, to being in a fully committed relationship. I would say I’m a little old-fashioned when it comes to my approach during courtship, as I’m sure many men here are as well. I’m a gentleman, I open doors and I am always considerate.
When do I pay? When does she pay? Is it wrong if we split the bill sometimes? What is the secret?
Jonathan
Hi Jonathan,
I love this question. It’s an interesting time we live in, right? There’s an expectation for equality in all aspects of men and women’s lives. Reasonable people assume that women are as capable as men and as interested in work-related success. We also acknowledge the need for women to be financially independent. And on the flip side, society has realized the importance men have in more traditionally domestic roles–sharing work in the home, being a present father and a supportive husband, and so on. And yet…the world of dating is in some respects behind the curve. What is it about romance that makes women expect to be rescued and men expect to be rescuers? It’s bizarre.
For a first date, the expectation from both parties should be to split the bill. Men should not be financially obligated to pay just because they have a penis. It’s not right, and it’s outdated. Now, notice that I said this is what the expectation should be. That means, if you feel that as the man, you’d like to pay, either because you had an especially nice time, or your values just dictate that you do that, then by all means. Pay the bill. What a wonderful surprise for your date. Same goes for women. Going forward with a relationship, I see no reason why you can’t continue to split the bill. Or you could trade off paying for dates. Of course, for special occasions, like celebrating a work promotion or toasting a birthday, the one who is being celebrated shouldn’t pay.
If you can’t get on board with bill-splitting (I’ve heard people make the argument that it’s not really a date if you split the bill; I’m not following that logic myself, but okay), then the default should be the person who asks pays. They’ve initiated the date, presumably they’ve picked the place and the activities, they should pay.
Where it gets interesting is that moment of truth during the first date, when you don’t know what the other person’s expectations are. In situations like these, I say, lay it out on the table. “This is always the awkward part, isn’t it? Do you mind if we split the bill?” I know some readers will probably say, for the first date, just pay, but if you see this person again and again then you run the risk of establishing a routine where you always pay, which is the situation you got yourself into in your previous relationship. And if you won’t be seeing this person again, you shouldn’t have to pony up money for a crappy date.
You mention that you like to be old-fashioned in other areas of dating. I don’t think having those values means you have to go broke in order to maintain them. Being able to pay for everything all the time is not related to a value system. It just means you have a lot of disposable income, and most people have little control over that. But doing the things that don’t cost money, like pulling out her chair, opening her door, getting her coat–those things are a direct result of your desire to be attentive and courteous to your date. To me, that’s much more meaningful than always paying for dinner. I think a deserving woman, one with values similar to your own, will recognize and appreciate that.
-Beth
Got a question for Beth? Send it to: askawoman@dappered.com
As stated, this is a preference thing, but if a woman I’m dating isn’t at least fighting me to pay, that’s a dealbreaker (ladies).
“I’ll pay for this one. Next one’s on you.” – said coyly
Yeah, she should at least REACH for it.
Personally, I would pay for the first date (or two) and just say, “you can get the next one” if only to avoid the discomfort of the situation.
Another approach would be to trade paying for events on the date. So, if you’re doing dinner and a movie, you can say, “tell you what, I’ll take care of dinner if you get the movie tickets.” Or, “I’ll get us dinner and you can take care of the drinks…” or the tip, or desert, etc. In that way you both win. You feel “manly” and she’s contributing to the date so there’s no discomfort about expectations from the guy buying everything (I’m not sure if that still happens). I would be sure to offer to pay for the more expensive activity, but at least you’ve cut some of the cost. This assumes the woman at least asks to pay, split the bill, tip, contribute, etc. If she never does that and always assumes that you will pay, that’s another issue.
Use this in combination with Beth’s advice about the invite-or paying or switching back and forth, and that should work.
On a first date, take the bill. At this point, most women will at least put up a token resistance and offer to split. This is where you offer “You can get the next one” – and the precedent is now set (as well as the initiation of the second date being out of the way). From there, it’s a pretty seamless transition to “person who asks pays”.
If she doesn’t offer token resistance? See Phantoom’s comment.
Normal people of either gender will feel similar awkwardness about this issue. Normal people will express that awkwardness by offering to pay the bill, split the bill, or pick up the next one. Normal people, on subsequent dates, will remember what was done on the previous date and act accordingly, thus alleviating awkwardness. Abnormal people will sit back and let you pay time and again without so much as offering to pay, therefore augmenting the awkwardness. Abnormal people are awkward. Abnormal people are not worth dating.
The bill, too.
Not necessarily a dealbreaker for me, but they’ve gotta do the dance. Even if they really had no intention of paying.
Not necessarily a dealbreaker for me, but they’ve gotta do the dance. Even if they really had no intention of paying.
I agree with this. She should offer or make an attempt to grab the bill or something even if it’s a first date. If she doesn’t, then I would automatically split it with her. If she makes the effort, tell her you got it this time and she can get the next one. I’d probably do the same thing for the 2nd and 3rd date as well. After that, she can start sharing costs like someone suggested earlier where you pay for dinner and she pays for the movie or whatever. If she does not make an effort to pay at all, cut her loose. She will be high maintenance down the road.
First date is on me, splitting is nice after that. When I start trying to figure out how much I’ve spent on her, I know it’s over, last girl was $500 in 7 weeks. @.@
I heartily agree with the invitation rule Beth mentioned. In addition to the ‘business lunch’ atmosphere of splitting the bill, which I find very un-date-like, here’s the other trap with sharing everything: “Surprise! I planned a night at the symphony for us, won’t that be swell?! And by the way, you owe me $95 for the ticket, plus bring probably another $75 for dinner.” Not only is this is quite unromantic, but it’s completely unfair and awkward unless you are 100% positive that she would enjoy and is easily able to spend that much. (And even then I’d say it’s pretty lame…)
But with the invitation rule, the one who pays also gets to control the spending so no one is uncomfortable. Can’t afford to go the symphony all the time? Don’t feel sheepish about it, make up for it with effort. I guarantee that most women would appreciate a creative, unexpected, and thoughtful picnic or home cooked meal more than your ability throw wads of cash at someone in a fancy restaurant anyway. And if she values your cash more, well, no comment. Besides, she might be highly relieved to know she doesn’t have to keep up her own expensive charade. And if you can afford to go to the symphony all the time? Great for you. Go half as often, pay for both, and make her truly feel special.
Plus, when the check comes on the first date, you can say something like “Please, allow me — I’m the one who invited you out to enjoy your company, so it’s my pleasure to cover the bill tonight.” This compliments her, sets the precendent that you are not paying just because you’re the man, and that you are interested in someone who also wants to share the load and put in the effort to make you feel special on occasion. And if she’s not savvy enough or willing to go along with that, well … no comment again.
Don’t go somewhere on a date if you can’t afford the whole bill. Reach for the bill and pay it unless she reaches for it, if she does then let her have it. If any awkward looks or silences happen say-
“We live in a world caught between traditional and modern practices. I never know what to do with the bill, I’ll pay it, you can pay it, or we can split it it doesn’t matter to me, whatever makes you happy.”
If you feel like she thinks of you as a sugar daddy, you need to identify and get rid of her before you get in too deep with her. Women you have to “buy” never seem to live up to their end of the deal.
Agreed, she should offer something in return (get your mind out of the gutter). She should offer to pay for the next date, the movie, drinks, tip, something to show that she appreciates what you’re doing (and you, I guess).
I wouldn’t go so far as to split the bill if she doesn’t grab for it, but she should acknowledge it in some way (next one is mine, I’ll pay for event later, something).
You guys keep paying for those 1st dates at the fancy restaurant. Ill stick to being the guy that comes over late for a movie, a sleep over, and possibly her cooking for me. Good thing there are so many nice guys out there to finance women’s social lives.
Those “nice guys” come off as creepy or needy to women.
Most of my first dates are split. I haven’t found that to be a problem at all. If she doesn’t offer to split it, I tend to say “I’ve got it. If you want, you can get it next time.” That suggests I’d like to see her again and that I’m not some chump to be used as a walking wallet. If we reach a 3rd date and I’ve paid all three times, regardless of whether or not we’ve slept together, I bail. The idea that I’m a walking wallet due to my gender is sexist.
On the other hand, if a woman offers to pay on a first date, it pretty much guarantees I’ll want to go out with her again because she’s earned my respect. And I’ll pay the next time.
I believe in equality.
Don’t ask me how i got to this, but i encourage everyone to read: http://hellogiggles.com/my-inner-feminist-vs-my-inner-princess
Well played.
I agree completely with the sentiment, but I would say that reciprocation is the important part, not necessarily paying for something. If I pay for dinner and a girl doesn’t have a lot of money so next time she cooks a meal for the two of us, I consider that to be equal. It is more a matter of respect than money. Definitely a deal breaker if things are perceptibly unequal.
On the flip side, I went on a date with a girl who cut me off multiple times on the way to doors to make sure that she opened exactly as many doors for me as I opened for her, including my own car door on the driver’s side a few times. She seemed very surprised later when I didn’t try to make a move on her. I suppose, like in all things, there is a happy medium that should be found.
That is a psycho! People should run from her!
Mostly correct. Men also have historically paid for things on dates because being a provider is a desirable trait in a man. In the traditional family unit, including before currency and “working,” a man provides for a family while the woman takes care of the home and offspring. A date can be an interpreted as an audition to fulfill these roles. Not that I have much intention to do so.
Agreed, Beth. Benevolent sexism has no place in 2013 society; women don’t need their meals paid for in order for the man to demonstrate he can eventually support her as he works and she has the kids and cooks and cleans. If you want to pay, pay. If you want to go stag, go stag. It’s not automatically a man’s responsibility to pay for a meal by virtue of being a man anymore than it’s a woman’s responsibility to be ‘pure’ by virtue of being a woman.
I agree, but I think everyone might be reading a bit too much into things. Paying for a date isn’t (nowadays) so much about chivalry or “benevolent sexism”; it’s about general courtesy. When my male friends and I go out, we don’t always split the check. Sometimes one guy will pick up the tab. The point is to go out and enjoy the company, whoever that company may be. Pay for what you can afford. Don’t keep score or worry about tit-for-tat. Just have a good time.
It’s also a sign that she may not be that into you as well. Deal breaker nonetheless.
I recently got into a relationship with a women who is not a financially stable as I am. i find this to be a frequent thing most women in their late twenties are barley getting on their feet it seems. She has been very honest and up front stating she cannot finance the same social life that I follow I do want to spend time with her and have her there for dinners, drinks, happy hours, events, etc… But for that to happen I have to front the bill more often then not. This is hard for me coming from a firm believer in the whole 50/50 motto. She is in the education field and with a couple exams and certs could be making some more coin but she seems kind of stagnant and i don’t want to push her to hard in advancing to make more money. She is self supporting but with little money to spare. What gives? She likes going out and being social why doesn’t she put herself in the position to afford it?
Maybe because teaching is her passion, and not money? Not everyone works specifically for the paycheck. If she derives satisfaction from her job, who are you to judge and put down her financial situation?
Perhaps you should just move on, for both of your sakes. It sounds like you already resent her, and that is not a good start to a healthy relationship.
I refuse to believe that any girl (or guy for that matter) worth dating is going out with you and ordering things they can’t afford because they expect you to pay. If they are, then that’s the mark of a selfish and therefore undatable person. However, if she’s just accepting your invitations, ordering reasonably, and then genuinely grateful when you pay, then I don’t understand your feelings of resentment. Also, she’s not an accessory for your social life, so if you like her so much, maybe find things to do with her that are easier on the wallet. If you’re not able to bring yourself to do that, then maybe she’s not for you.
My apologies. It’s not resentment I have what so ever. I enjoy this women. She is strong and honest. She has many ambitions. Wants to travel and experience things. Things that cost money. I was her to do those things bc those are things I enjoy as well but I can’t afford a payed trip to Europe. If I wanna pack up and go somewhere for the weekend or week I want her to come along because its a great feeling traveling new with someone you care about. I was just saying that she has the ability to out herself in a position to obtain those things she is ambitious about and I wish she would.
I was not trying to put her down. I was saying that she has the ability to put herself in a position to give herself the opportunity to be able to afford the things she wants. Like traveling and weekend getaways a nice dress here and there. I can see how this bothers her and I want her to be happy but I don’t feel comfortable buying expensive gifts at this point. You know? I travel a lot for work an fun and I can see the disappointment in her eyes that she can’t afford to come with. Weather it’s the ticket the accommodations etc.
hmmmm 5 down votes. I wonder if these are from women who enjoy having a financed social. Maybe its from the guys who can only impress a woman by spending money on her.
“I’ll get this, you get the next” is the way to go, however this is the perfect opportunity to up your game with specifics…First and foremost you shouldn’t even take a girl out to a fancy dinner on the first date…Your date should include a minimum of three activities and if eating is going to be part of it, ensure it’s not first. Also you’re much better off at a tiny little corner bistro then a restaurant with a dress code. The best activity you can do is something interactive, the absolute best thing you can do is dancing/salsa lessons, there’s also batting cage, go carts, pool and bowling…The second tier is Museums, aquariums and the zoo. If you’re broke, a great freebie is taking her shopping, say you need a new shirt, take her to the store, buy something with your credit card and just return it the next day. Therefore start with salsa lessons, when it comes time to pay say “I got this, we’ll grab a bite at this great little corner bistro after, you pick that up”. Get to the corner bistro, go out for drinks at a place with pool tables after…The beauty of this is you now have something to talk about (dancing/shopping/zoo/etc) during the short dinner after when it comes to drink and pool, you can talk about the pool game if you’re struggling with conversation topics. You also already got her comfortable with dancing therefore you can extra flirty during the pool game.
You make it sound like the guys who pay for 1st dates are all shmucks. Granted, a fancy restaurant to try and gain some brownie points is a stereotype about it, but for some (like myself), it’s just a value that was instilled and that I want to keep on with.
It’s the different between people who pay because they want to pay versus the ones who pay because they expect SOMETHING out of it.
Understood. If you care about her, and it sounds like you do, simply encourage her efforts and in the meantime do what you both can afford. Things shake out eventually.
Feminism messes up another woman. I am all for equality but instead we get sameness where women try to act like men.
Opening up the driver side door for you while it shows she is thoughtful and caring is also just strange
No joke. If I knew the guy, I would offer him a wholehearted congratulation for avoiding a second date with that girl by any means.
That music video was hilarious and sadly close to the truth in some respects.
Anyway: First date whoever asks pays (usually me). Second date she should at least reach for it. After that I’m fine splitting or switching off whichever.
I don’t mind splitting the first if she’s adamant (endearing quality) but if I”m genuinely interested in her I’ll often counter with “You get the next one” (2nd date secured!)
If you really like this girl and are having a great time together and you are financially ascendant at the moment, who cares if you pay more. 2 girls I dated in the past were still in college and I was working so I’d happily pick up the tabs. They were nothing ridiculous and although no longer dating I have lots of fond memories of her. I don’t remember how much more I spent and I really don’t think it matters.
I went on a second with a pretty girl. I was directed by friends to a restaurant whose prices were way above what I was expecting ($100 for the night). The food was great, the company was even better. I had just gotten paid for a big job, so I gladly paid. What I really liked though, was that after dinner, she took me out for dessert at this special dessert bar. This was an impressive move.
In the past, I’ve paid for the first several dates. An offer to pay or split the bill is nice, but the simple fact is that I came prepared to pay for the date myself.
Once a relationship is established, I really don’t think it should be a big deal to say “Hey, I’m a bit short on cash right now. Do you mind if we just stay in?/Can you grab this one?”
Men should absolutely be prepared to pay, always. If in response a woman insists on splitting or some other arrangement there’s nothing wrong with that either. But the worst case scenario is to be with a woman who expects you to pay and be the guy who asks to split or has a problem with paying.
Men paying should be the default. Any deviation from that is between adults and fine as well, but the starting assumption should be the man paying.
I am probably the youngest person here and I wonder how can you NOT pay for the first date? You are trying to win your lady’s heart, and it is that much more romantic when the man pays.
I understand the were all equal now, but a date isn’t about women’s place in society, it’s about YOU and HER and showing her that you are the man. If you can’t afford the dinner/date, take her somewhere else.
Well I’m married now, but if I were asking a girl on a date, I would expect to pay since I extended the invitation. If she invited, I would it very rude if she didn’t at least attempt to pay. If it’s a mutually agreed upon thing, then it’s a little more open to interpretation. But to be fair, I can’t ever remember allowing a girl to pay for anything unless we were already settled into a relationship. I always chalked it up as an expectable expense when I was dating.
You surely don’t sound bitter at all
It’s all about context really. Paying for an outing isn’t inherently sexist, but it’s not reading too much into things to suggest phrases like “win [buy] her heart”,”show her you’re the man”, “it’s right for me to pay” are steeped in (conscious or not) sexism. They pop up in this conversation so regularly you could pick a few more and play bingo.
Edit: Basically your last three sentences are pretty much it.
“Women you have to “buy” never seem to live up to their end of the deal.” -It’s curious how this thought and the idea of the obligation to pay for everything coexist in the male psyche (generally speaking)
(Absolutely not a dig at you, Doug, just a thing that crossed my mind)
I’d submit that besides Beth’s pretty spot-on commentary, who ever said a date has to be about buying things (food or otherwise?)
Thinking outside convention, there are loads of experiences to have together.
I completely agree. I meant the reading too much into it comment for the overall situation. I probably should have written “overthinking it,” as in everyone is overthinking the complexity of social interactions.
If it has to be explained, then you probably wouldn’t understand anyway.
(No dig at you, either)
Id say enlightened, but you know the saying about opinions