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Bangladesh

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Top Photo Credit: Fredrik Rubensson

Where do you even start?

It housed numerous garment factories, and the death toll from the Rana Plaza building collapse in Bangladesh on April 24th has since risen past 900.  On Wednesday, eight more people died in a fire at another garment factory in Bangladesh.

None of the brands covered here were sourcing from the factories associated with these two most recent incidents.  But does that even matter?  At all?  Plenty (GAP, Target, etc.) have suppliers in Bangladesh. Pretty sure we’ve all seen “made in Bangladesh” on a tag before. And there have been accidents in the past.

Do you take a retailer’s social responsibility policies to heart? Does any brand that imports most if not all of their clothing know their own supply chains?

80% of Bangladesh’s export income comes from the garment industry. Will you stop buying clothes that say “Made in Bangladesh” on them? If the garment industry pulls out as a whole (of course they won’t) will there be unintended consequences?

Would you work for a company that sources clothing from Bangladesh?

Does it matter if you don’t view a purchase as “disposable”, but instead as an investment, no matter where it’s made?

What do you want this website to cover and not cover?  A premium is placed on well made goods, and “Made in the USA” or “Made in Italy” seems to get lots of play.  Will the garment industry ever come back on a large scale to the United States?

And where and under what working conditions was the computer or smartphone that you’re on right now manufactured?

Thanks in advance for keeping this discussion respectful, civil, and rational.

Comments

  2. I spend money on places that treat their employees fairly. That could be in US, could be in China, could be in Tajikistan – I don’t care where the country is as long as the people are paid a fair wage and treated like humans.

  3. I have frequently worried about dappered concentrating on value clothing without, so far, giving much, if any, coverage to the consequences of buying $10 shirts or $15 chinos.

    I’ve never mentioned my concerns because I too have bought $5 t-shirts from Joe Fresh (I am Canadian) and I didn’t want to be a hypocrite.

    I am in the process of changing my buying habits as a result of this tragedy, trying to find stores that have a transparent and enforced CSR program.

  4. I prefer to buy goods made in the U.S.A., difficult as they may be to find. I will pay a premium, if I can afford that premium, not only to get goods I know were not made in sweatshops, but to keep my hard earned dollars circulating in the same economy that pays my paychecks. That’s not to say that I won’t buy imports or that I am against them entirely, but buying local makes a lot of sense, both from a social responsibility,a nd a looking out for ones own interests standpoint.

    As for imports, it really troubles me that I don’t know the conditions most of my imported goods were made under. I wish I could believe social responsibility, and human rights statements made by brands that contract a lot of imported goods, but I know how difficult that really is to police, and I also believe the supposed economic imperative of outsourcing is bull. Cheap (sweat) labor has not made any of the goods we buy any less expensive for the consumer. The profits from sweat labor mostly wind up being absorbed by executive salaries, marketing, and transportation costs.

  5. Obviously the conditions and the general safety of some of these factories is beyond awful, but I can’t support a wholesale boycott of clothing made in Bangladesh. I have spent a lot of time in Bangladesh, the garment industry is very important to the economy there, and especially to women. The garment industry makes women breadwinners in a culture where they historically do not have any income potential or power.

    I met several people in Dhaka who worked in the clothing industry and were checking on the factories they used, but I’m sure there are countless more companies who either don’t care about conditions or are being lied to by factory owners.

    I hope that, in the wake of these current disasters, the Bangladeshi government and clothing companies make these factory owners accountable for the fate of their workers.

  7. Not buying from a specific foreign economy because the current conditions are poor will almost always make those conditions worse when the money stops coming in.

  8. You can generally ask – if a company is willing to say where they’re made and the working conditions the people are in, generally a good sign. If not. well….

  9. Thanks for covering this. I just want to emphasize the power individual consumers have here. If we stop buying products that rely on sweatshop labor, these companies will have to pay their workers fair wages to get back their client base.

  10. And generally, the bigger the company the less I trust their social responsibility statement. For too many it’s something thats tacked on and ignored in their business model. Find the cheapest labor, and justify that by any means possible.

  14. I agree with you Chris.

    I wanted to add: Every industrial revolution goes through these cycles. Workers in China are now protesting for better wages and working conditions. This just like the US of yesteryear when unions started forming and workplace regulations started to appear during the Teddy Roosevelt era (I think at least).

    The long-term solution will be from Bangladesh’s government. The short-term solution will be companies monitoring the factory conditions better and (god-forbid) willing to pay the extra penny/nickel/dime per garment to ensure these standards.

    What we can do as consumers is write write write. I hear all this talk about boycott this and boycott that, but do know how long it takes for that to hit the company’s bottom line? But do you know how fast someone will notice 100 emails in their CEO’s mailbox regarding worker conditions?

  15. Right, but ask who? Surely the girl working the till doesn’t know all the various suppliers J. Crew uses to manufacture all their different products. Do you send an email to corporate? And how detailed is the information you get back? I feel like this could work for small, limited-production brands (like Ratio, for instance), but I imagine there are a good number of retailers that do use good sourcing practices, but that nevertheless aren’t going to be able to supply you with a full list of the vendors they use, for one reason or another.

  16. This. ^^ Regretfully, the short to mid-term effect of boycotting a nation leads to severe suffering of its people. It rarely hurts the label, just the people.

  19. Great post. I’d love to see more of this kind of thing here. And yes please, more Made in USA and Made in Italy! Please don’t hesitate to let us know when y’all come across good finds made at home or in Italia.

  20. Ah, yes. The blackmail defense. Don’t do anything, because doing something will make it worse. The first time I heard it was during the South African boycotts in the 80’s, we were told that not spending money in SA would not only only do nothing to stopping Apartheid but hurt the black population.

    It’s a bullcrap argument. If the problem are the rich, the solution is to take their money. The reasons for the collapse of the building lie within the factory owners trying to squeeze as much profit as they can and corrupt government officials willing to be bribed to look the other way. Will they change if you take away their money? Probably. Will they change if we do nothing? Of course not.

  21. Do you have statistics on this? Examples? I’ve seen boycotts before make great change. What are you referring to?

  23. This is certainly a tough one, but I’m glad to see something like this on the site and I’m glad Joe wrote it.

    The obvious crux is that buying garments and accessories that are made in the U.S. (or other countries with better working conditions) is more expensive, and not always an option. I’m guessing that most Dappered readers don’t have the ability to buy items like that exclusively, but every individual purchase is important, and I try to be responsible in my shopping decisions whenever my wallet allows for it.

  24. Great topic. This is what elevates Dappered above most of the mainstream menswear blogs. Factory workers in Italy can be treated just as poorly as anywhere else so it seems somewhat racist to designate Asian countries as inherently producing cheap and poorly made products that are all made in sweat shops. Totally ok with goods made in foreign lands, as long as workers are paid and treated fairly. I don’t want to work in a factory. Do you? That being said, it’s up to us as consumers to hold the stores we support accountable.

  25. It’s not like boycotting and doing nothing are the only two options. How about doing research on specific offenders and then targeting them? A blanket policy will do more harm than good.

  26. I really like this departure in content. I think there are a ton of things worthy of discussion that are related to the fashion/garment industry, business, companies, etc.

  27. Not meaning to advertise here, as I have no personally or financial stake in the company – but someone who goes above and beyond workplace integrity and empowerment is Krochet Kids International, out of Newport Beach, CA. They’ve got a great business model and are unbelievably transparent; anyone interested in this topic ought to check them out.

  28. The problem is that not every revolution is successful. There were revolutions and attempts to unionize or gain freedoms that have been put down horribly all throughout the world and for every US and Europe, there is Asia, Africa and South American revolutions that have been crushed horribly. Heck, you put China as an example, I remember a Chinese revolution that was put down in our lifetimes.

    As for Bangladesh, even before all the factory collapses, they were trying to organize and were being killed.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/10/world/asia/killing-of-bangladesh-labor-leader-spotlights-grievances-of-workers.html?smid=pl-share

    You can’t pretend that our lifestyle or system is inevitable. It isn’t.

  29. I have seen many so many comments about how a boycott would just hurt the poor of Bangladesh, that I wanted to make a blanket reply. If this were a 100% government boycott that truly cuts off all exports
    like what we saw in Iraq, Iran or Cuba, I would agree with you but it’s
    not. It is a boycott of concerned people who could spend money and
    choose to spend their money elsewhere. At the most, what are we looking
    at? 20% of American consumers? That isn’t enough to starve Bangladesh
    but it’s enough to hurt the pocketbooks of rich factory owners and
    clothing brands who have refused to do what is right to save a few
    pennies. Standing up won’t hurt people like doing nothing can, so give it a try.

  30. Joe, you can start putting something on your reviews of clothing at the bottom like “Made in USA”, “Made in China”, “unknown.” Some people care, some people don’t. I’m always curious where the clothes were made. It’s not because I’m some super humanitarian. Labeling helps me more with what I’d pay. (e.g. $200 shoes made in Vietnam? No. $200 shoes made in Spain? I just might.) It’s your blog, so do as you will. I’ll keep reading regardless because I love this site.

  31. I think the harm of a boycott has been overstated. As for inspections and research, if billion dollar companies have been unwilling and unable to correctly do it, how can you ask a regular person to do it?

    http://www.npr.org/2013/05/01/180103898/foreign-factory-audits-profitable-but-flawed-business

    http://www.npr.org/2013/04/29/179878403/bangladesh-lacks-factory-fire-inspectors-for-huge-industry

    http://www.npr.org/2013/04/30/180123158/documents-wal-mart-auditors-inspect-bangladeshi-factory-find-safety-flaws

  32. Actually, while I agree that the GMO scare is overblown, it doesn’t directly have any correlation with this argument and neither does your link. The debate is about the horrible conditions that are going into making our clothing and what we should do about it. The fact that clothing is a smaller percentage (dollar wise) than we might think is irrelevant.

  33. Exactly. The problems are:

    1. where do we get the information?

    2. does the retailer have accurate information?

    3. is the retailer truthful or just telling us what we want to hear?

    Even the most well intentioned retailers can be duped. The only way to avoid this is to produce themselves which is cost prohibitive.

  34. I recently asked a friend who traveled extensively in Vietnam if the people there generally benefited from the jobs created by our clothing demands. His degree is in economics and his response was something like “I think they are happy to have the jobs.” It may not be the full picture, but it provided me with some relief as a conscious consumer to know that there are pros and cons to the story, as is the case with any business or even life decision.

  36. My inexpensive clothes come mostly from thrift stores. This often supports philanthropic efforts and is WAY cheaper than new stuff made in Pakistan/Bangladesh/China/etc and sold at Old Navy. My plan is to pay the premium for Made in America stuff when I can’t find what I need in thrift stores, such as with jeans and chinos.

  37. Just my 2 cents: I work in operations for a large retailer. While there are a lot of options for retailers to drive accountability on the part of their suppliers, it’s very difficult to ensure 4th parties abroad (factories that supply a retailer’s suppliers) are in compliance. Many – I won’t say ‘most’ – US retailers take worker safety abroad very seriously solely because horrible incidents like these are very bad PR, and retailers thrive off public perception of their brand. So in that respect, I think retailers are trying to do their part. Whether or not they’re successful is another story. I think the catalyst for change has to be the Bangladeshi government. Nothing will change until they actually enforce penalties and rules. The fact that this keeps happening makes it’s obvious that those in power are being bought off.

  39. We cannot escape in an overnight what we are, a predominantly capitalistic society. Now, before we start running to our preferred corner of the political/social spectrum, let’s look at it rationally. Capitalism is not intended to be fair to all parties. By design, capitalism is meant to maximize profits through investing in and owning the means of production and distribution. Is this wrong? Not necessarily. It is the manner in which those means of production and distribution are reached that social/economical issues rightfully arise. In other words, exploitation is the action that is at the root of the debate. (From which we can go into debates about any of the ~isms (socialism as a theory and not a political movement, communism also as a theory and not a political movement, exploitation through ageism, racism, classism, sexism, etc.). For the time being, let’s not jump there yet.

    One of my closest friends and I had this discussion 7 years ago. He asked me, “Am I just not supposed to buy anything?” My response was, and is to this day, to make the most informed decision possible about needs versus wants, and then balance that with your (monetary) means.

    If you are working for minimum wage should you only buy from Brooks Brothers for a job interview when you need to take into account other more important needs (shelter, food, child care, medicine, helping your retired parents, etc.) simply because they offer an item you like that is made in the USA? Clearly, the answer should be “no.” Monetary means clearly play a role in the decision. Nonetheless, making an informed/aware decision helps us keep in perspective our future decisions. If I know I am barely making it on minimum wage, and I just purchased this item that I believe is produced in conditions that are not adequate, I will think about it in the future if I have the means to purchase an item that I believe is not made under those conditions. At least, that should be the goal.

    Let’s complicate it even further: For example, I need to buy a shirt for work. I’ve read about all of the horrible things that happen in Nicaragua. Should I buy a shirt because it says “Made in the USA?” Again, not necessarily. Simply because a product is made in the USA does not guarantee sweatshop-free environments for their workers or fair wages. So again, it becomes my responsibility, and the responsibility of sites and colleagues as yourselves, to say when you do/don’t believe a product’s production is meeting the safety standards we would want for ourselves.

    Now, to complicate it even further, let’s add a living wage to the issue. Yeah, this will add even more fuel to the (hopefully civil) debate.

    It is very easy to understand why this can be such a polarizing issue regardless of your political/social affiliation. Nonetheless, we have some power through our purchases, and a responsibility to speak out when we see a wrong. It is easy to turn the other way and pretend that you do not see a problem. But at the end of the day, you know if you truly believe something is right or wrong.

    Certainly, things go in cycles and people start fighting back from the inside (as the case is with China) when conditions are not adequate. But we also have a responsibility as consumers, not because we believe that unions, etc., need to be there…rather, that we would want to be treated with dignity, earn a livable wage, and work in conditions that are not life-threatening.

  40. I agree with you. Thanks for your insights.

    PS Can I take it that the points you don’t disagree with are the ones you agree with? Thanks again!

  41. That presumes that components are are not subcontracted and they know exactly who is making their products. The recent tragedies have shown that retailers often don’t know who is actually making their clothes and that manufacturers endlessly subcontract or source the work.

  42. Thinking the same thing. How would you even know the information is valid? You could always send an email to the corporate office……I guess?

  43. Excellent topic. If you would like to dig deeper into this topic I recommend “Fugitive Denim: A Moving Story of People and Pants in the Borderless World of Global Trade” by Rachel Louise Snyder

    http://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Denim-Moving-People-Borderless/dp/0393335429/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368230066&sr=8-1&keywords=fugitive+denim

    This book references the topic from a denim perspective. From fabric to the finished garment highlights the people, countries and trade restrictions.

    For those curious about “Made in ?” tags, they are usually associated with the assembly step in finishing the garment.

    The garment industry is in some ways similar to the auto industry

  44. I have lived in SE Asia both in my teens and 30’s. I have lived in Thailand and Cambodia and traveled throughout Vietnam, Myanmar and Laos. My experience is sweatshop life is pretty grim. You are working 7 days a week, 12-14 hours a day and, after you send off money to your family (which is your duty), you have just enough to live in a slum/dorm and feed yourself. If you are really lucky, you will marry somebody with a big enough dowry that you can bribe your way into a lower supervisory position or you can start a food cart.

    Of course, we are currently talking about Bangladesh which is currently the cheapest place for clothing labor. The average salary is $37 a month.

  45. I do not agree. Though, our definition of “large scale” may differ. While some countries offer super low labor, others are getting more expensive. China for example is no longer affordable as it once was. I think the industry will come back. There are too many companies cashing in on made in USA goods, I think the trend will continue. Look at the specialty denim industry that is in a boom right now. These companies are charging $250 and up for a simple pair of denim, and people are paying! I say right now, large companies see this, and will follow this trend.

  46. I love the ideal of shopping USA made, it is difficult to follow through on. With a limited and tight budget I am restricted on what I can afford. I definitely can not afford any of the specialty USA made brands and it is depressing to browse sites such as union made and etc. I do believe there is a STRONG trend for USA production right now, as the quality of life and wages rise in many of the countries USA has imported from. Companies will slowly start bring production closer to our borders again (Mexico) and domestic production. These specialty brands are becoming popular enough, larger brands are realizing consumers are willing to pay more for a USA made item.

  47. Another part of the solution might be to order from brands indigenous to those regions, which are trying to do right for both workers and consumers. For example, Shubinak, a Pakistani company, delivers to North America. You can read their philosophy and browse their shop here: http://www.shubinak.com/shop2/content/4-about-us

    Of course, the styles are indigenous to that region and not everything will be wearable here. The blazers are probably a bit too “country-style” — stout and sturdy, not smooth and sleek… but the coats and bags (both men’s and women’s) translate well, and there might be even some unique accessory there that you can work into your personal style. Prices seem to be at a level that all sides are probably happy with, especially for the bags.

    (I don’t have any connection to Shubinak, but I’ve visited a store and seen the merchandise. Family members have bought many bags from them. I would love to see more brands like this, from any country, featured on style sites.)

  49. Very fair question/concerns – generally IMO, these big guys are gonna be part of the problem, lone exception being club monaco. if i remember correctly, dockers got in a bunch of hot water for selling “made in usa” pants that were from the same crappy fabric they made other stuff from.

    you never know, i suppose.

  50. I echo some of the sentiments in this discussion. I am willing to pay a premium for Made in USA items. If I can’t afford it, I will wait til I can or skip it for now.