Ask A Woman: Is standing for her too old-fashioned?
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Hi Beth:
I was raised by a pretty conservative, deep south, old-time manners family. I now live in Portland and recently had a date of mine ask me why I stood up for her at a restaurant when she got up from, then returned to the table (from the bathroom).
Is it time to end that tradition?
– Brian
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Hi Brian,
I’m a modern gal. I work outside the home; I mow the lawn and shovel the driveway; I can match at least half of my guy friends drink-for-drink. I know how hard the women who came before worked to make all of this so. (Yes, that’s what the suffragettes had in mind when they picketed in the cold with signs–“Someday our granddaughters will puke in the alley behind the bar, just like the men do.”) I recognize that my rights and freedom were not always a given, and I am so grateful for the opportunities I’ve had.
But I’m a sucker for chivalry. It makes me feel lovely and feminine and special. There are some people, both men and women, who feel that the time for chivalry has passed. These men say, “Guess what, you wanted equality, open your own damn door.” I get that. These women say, “Guess what, we wanted equality, we’ll open our own damn door.” I get that. Because chivalry, strictly defined, is only men showing courtesy toward only women, it is just another way of making the sexes different and of establishing gender roles. This does not jive with feminism, which is built on the belief that men and women are equal in all measures.
I know all this, and the reasoning behind it fuels many other beliefs I hold…but still…oh, so weak….I want a man to hold open the door for me. It’s that simple. I am filled with goodwill towards the guy who pulls out my chair and takes my coat. And I have yet to actually meet a woman who has her panties in a bundle over having had the door held open for her. Conservative, liberal, straight, lesbian, traditional, radical–I’ve heard all types gush about chivalrous behavior. And really, when you boil it down, isn’t chivalry just good manners?
Brian, you are a rare bird in an era of people screaming into their cell phones while in public and young starlets getting out of limousines spread-eagle while not wearing underwear. Civility is made up of small acts of kindness and respect, and most of them are fading away into memory and dust. I can think of nothing more appealing than a man who acts courteously towards his date. I hope when she leaves the table, you keep standing up–for her, and for chivalrous acts everywhere.
–Beth
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There is NEVER anything cheesy about being a gentleman. Kudos to you!
I was taught this growing up, and I tried to continue it while in college, but I stopped after a while. First I stopped doing it while out with a group of people, because every time I’d stand, it turned into a discussion about chivalry. Turned some women on, turned other women off, made some guys laugh, and irritated others when their dates gave them guff. After it became uncomfortable in a group, I think I slowly stopped doing it on individual dates. I’m, 30 now and married. I tried to bring it back a few years ago, but the results were similar. My wife was fine with it, but discussions for and against chivalry ensued amongst our friends. It got old quickly.
How nice to hear your input Beth. I live among MASSholes and am looked at almost scornfully for–as you said so well–“just good manners”. I’m 26 and it seems so unfortunate that so much of the under 40 somethings appear so ill-bred or shockingly startled by a plain and simple *hmm I see you on my daily commute or work in the same building so a simple good day or holding of the door is non-creepy and normal human interaction.*
Cheers to Blaine and Beth, p’haps you two can do a cross country tour and help cultivate some culture in these too busy doing nothing to be cordial types.
The reason that I do these good mannered things is partially because my mom taught me to. (Dad did as well, not cutting his credit) But if a woman teaches you something like that, you should listen.
Generally I agree with the posts, but you really have to read the people and the situation you are in. Chilling at someone’s house over beer and football, no, don’t get up every time a woman enters. Dinner at the White House, absolutely. Otherwise I think you have to balance situation and person. Same situation, there may be some women you’d rise for and some you wouldn’t because you know they wouldn’t appreciate it. Good manners is at least as much reading situations and contexts as it is always applying the same rule no matter what.
Posts like this are always about men’s manners. How about women’s manners? What’s expected of them?
I hold the door for everyone, whenever possible. Man, woman, child, whatever. And my lady friends? If they make it to the door first, they hold it for me, and I say thank you. I think this goes both ways.
Once in high school I was dinning with my girlfriend, her parents and their friends at fairly nice restaurant. When her and her mother got up to leave the table, I stood and the other two older men sat.
Maybe I was showing good manners, but I felt like a jerk because it threw the spotlight on the others.
Now in company I’ll rise slowly and see if anyone’s with me, and if they’re not I stay seated. Can it sometimes be ruder to be chivalrous?
Well done, sir. I have been writing blogs almost monthly, trying to get my college friends to step up and be a real man. Stay strong.
So I’m a little late to the game here, but I’ve found that as far as chivalry goes, women are generally in 1 of 3 camps:
1) Enjoy it, and assume the gender role that goes along with it (i.e. we treat you better, you do more for us)
2) Don’t like it or the gender role that comes with it (i.e. more independent, wants relative equality)
3) Wants it, but doesn’t want the gender role. (These are the real troublemakers – The ones who want the benefit of equality without the responsibility of it. They expect to be waited on hand and foot, but when it’s time for them to reciprocate, they’re suddenly your “equal” and shouldn’t have to do anything for you)
Sadly, most women fall into the 3rd category. More are in the 2nd than 1st these days as well, so old-time “chivalry” is mostly dead.
However, do NOT confuse chivalry with courtesy. I hold the door for my wife. I also hold it for the random guy that wanders in right behind me. Chivalry is treating women different because they’re women. Courtesy is treating all people nicely, regardless of gender. Courtesy doesn’t have to die along with chivalry. I have a problem with chivalry mostly because women who enjoy it are in the 3rd category. I have no problem with courtesy. Ever.