Ask A Woman: It’s THE TALK no one looks forward to.
If you’ve got a question that needs the female treatment, chances are you’re not the only one who wants to ask it. Beth is our source for the answers. From opinions on men’s style to decoding the sometimes mysterious ways of women, she’ll take on a different question every Thursday. She also might provide an answer without waiting to be asked. That happens from time to time too. Click here to get to know Beth, then get in touch with her by sending your question to: askawoman@dappered.com .
Hi Beth,
I’ve been dating a woman I met on Tinder for a little bit over three months now. It wasn’t a typical hook up at first since we spoke through Tinder and texted for a few weeks before actually meeting in person. On our first date, we did end up hooking up. However, we’ve continued to see each other from then on.
Fast forward three going onto four months, and I’m at the point where I feel like we should start considering where we both stand in the relationship. A few things of note, I have noticed a change in her behavior towards me when we text. There’s a bit of a disconnect there now that wasn’t there before. However, when we see each other, it’s always a great time. I understand that she could be seeing other people, which I can’t fault her for since we haven’t spoken about becoming exclusive yet.
Should I let her bring up the conversation about exclusivity or should I? I’m ready for any fallout that happens, but I’d much rather not keep continuing to invest time (and unfortunately money) into dating someone that I might not have a potential long-term relationship with.
Eric
Hi Eric,
Pretty sure this is the first email I’ve gotten with reference to Tinder, so that’s a milestone. Of some sort. I’ve never gotten a question about when to have the Define the Relationship conversation, so let’s dive in. I think three months is an appropriate point at which to ask both yourself and the other person, where is this going? Because you took the time to write to me, I think it’s important enough to you that you should bring it up with her instead of waiting for her to do it.
So what does that conversation look like? Well, figure out what you want first. It sounds like you want to either be exclusive from here on out, or break it off. Totally valid. Start with the first part, “We’ve never really talked about this, but I’d like for us to have a conversation about how things are going between us.” I sense a bit of hesitancy on your part to put it all out there for her, but I think that’s the best way to approach these talks. Tell her you really like being with her and you want to see where it goes in the future, so you’re hoping to make your couplehood official. If, after hearing that you want to go steady, as the olds say, she says she’s not ready, you can tell her at that point that you aren’t interested in just casually dating indefinitely. Although it’s my experience that women prefer to define the terms of a relationship outright rather than make assumptions, you may be surprised to learn that she already considered the two of you exclusive, in which case, congrats, a girlfriend!
Hopefully Eric’s lady doesn’t have this reaction.
As for your concerns about texting…I think texts are great for brevity and convenience (pls pick up OJ on ur way home). But they aren’t a very nuanced form of communication. You cannot determine tone unless the emotion is very clear in the words (what the hell is wrong with u). It’s entirely possible that your lady friend merely feels more comfortable with you thus her texts are more functional (dinner tonite works for me) these days. Take the texts at face value and don’t read too much into them unless she gives you a reason to.
If it doesn’t work out with this woman, you don’t need to feel like you’ve wasted anything, especially after three months. I’ll be honest, I roll my eyes when men complain about the “investment” of money they’ve lost while dating someone. Dating isn’t like fixing up a car. If it doesn’t work out, it’s not like finding out you bought a lemon. Unless you’re paying for her apartment and giving her a monthly allowance, it’s more productive to think of the bucks you “lost” when taking her out to dinner as part of the process of getting to know someone. When it works out, it’s great, and when it doesn’t, it’s a good learning opportunity to take with you to the next relationship.
-Beth
Got something brewing in your life? Send me an email–style, etiquette, relationships–I answer it all:askawoman@dappered.com
If you have to ask “where is this going?” I think you already know the answer.
Seems a little broad. No doubt that’s often the case, but, c’mon.
And let’s not make assumptions about her stature either.
Sorry, I’m still thinking about last week.
Can’t stop watching dat gif.
Personally I’ve never been in a serious relationship where one of us had to say “Where is this going?” It’s always just evolved naturally and all of a sudden you’re introducing her as your girlfriend. When one of us has had to say “where is this going?” the answer is inevitably “we’ll continue hooking up and not telling anyone about it.”
It’s impossible to gauge intonation via text. If he wants to know where they stand, why not… you know…. ASK.
The flip side is much more uncomfortable…when the person you are dating starts a conversation by asking YOU how YOU think things are going. That’s usually a good clue to just say goodbye, before you start to hear the reasons why it’s not actually going well. “Let’s skip the awkward conversation…and yeah, that was fun while it lasted.”
Key word: “Personally” That’s your own personal experience. Like I said, no doubt it’s often the case, but it’s a big world out there.
Definitely agree with Beth on the limited usefulness of text- especially the more you get to know someone. IMHO the transformation from online connection when your texts give her a thrill of mysterious from a handsome stranger fades over time once you meet.
If anything over-texting from a man seems to be a ‘turn-off’ to many women- relating to trying to be available but not too available.
If her text have changed he might want to check his texting pattern, many men fall in to the problem of always responding and sending too many texting and coming off as needy. I’ve been guilty of this in the past and now learning about it, I made myself look like a needy kid rather than a busy focused man with other things going on in his life.
Best advice I read was in a relationship/dating, text should be used to arrange your next face to face, and used as little “love notes” to build some anticipation. Not for a full convo.
Same applies to women, if she sends you 5 messages in an hour…cra cra flag.
One way of bringing it up could to just casually ask if she is seeing other people. I currently have a casual dating partner and the two of us are pretty open about the fact that we do date others, and even share stories of some. But for us it works because neither is in a place where we want to be totally committed (well, I am not, and this is what she claims).
Either way, one of the biggest keys to a relationship is communication. All too often us men are too afraid to talk about things and it ends up going against our favor. Best bet would be to find a way to bring it up without sounding like you are accosting or accusing and have a conversation on it. She might be wanting to go steady and thinking that you are seeing others, too.
“I’ll be honest, I roll my eyes when men complain about the “investment” of money they’ve lost while dating someone.”
::applause break::
On a separate, but related, note – Tinder is the truth. If you are an under-30 male, there is no more cost and time efficient method to interact with large quantities of attractive women. Especially good for gaining access to potential partners outside your social circle or social sphere (ie the same girls hanging out at the same places you always go to). Like anything else, including talking to women at a bar, it requires practice and patience but the ROI on time and money vs. traditional dating can be pretty spectacular.
Sooooo….Considering that Tinder almost virtually eliminates other intangibles that are incredibly important to the start of most relationships, be they short or long, and focuses almost purely on the superficial, you’re essentially making an argument for quantity over quality. If that’s the case, I’m going to argue that Tinder isn’t necessarily “truth.” At least not for everyone.
Sad but true. For many women, giving them too much of your time or attention (especially via text) will cause them to become disinterested quickly. That said, these are often the same women that turn around and complain about guys playing games; it’s a very odd and somewhat off-putting contradiction.
I think Sege E is more referring to the fact that since tinder gives you “access” to a wide range of available-and-looking individuals, it is “the truth” in that is an extremely productive way of “putting yourself out there.”
No, the nuance of conversational ticks, sense of humor, and intangible “chemistry” aren’t likely communicated by Tinder like casual flirtation in person might better showcase. IMHO, this isn’t the point; the idea is to give you a large pool from which both parties can sift and winnow their way to their own pool of superficially compatible people and begin more in-depth flirtation and conversation from there.
I personally love the concept, but seeing as I haven’t been single in the Tinder era, perhaps my opinion is irrelevant.
Nick pretty accurately gets at the point I am trying to make. For most under-30’s, the vast majority of initial interactions between first meeting (which is often a brief interaction) someone and a first date happen via text (I encourage you to ask a 24-27 year old woman her opinions on a guy calling to arrange a first date. I bet the word “awkward” makes multiple appearances). Tinder essentially allows you to go through this entire experience with incredible efficiency. Instead of having to, for example, go to a bar, spend a not insignificant amount of money on drinks and potentially cover, and approach a number of women you are attracted to (no easy task to do 10+ times a night for the average male) to have (in best case scenario) some percentage of them reciprocate your interest…you can sit on your couch while watching Netflix, swipe right on a few hundred girls you are interested in and get a few matches. Not only are these leads easier to acquire than traditional methods, they are also more strongly qualified (it is much harder to reject a person asking for your number in real life, than it is to just swipe left on Tinder. Therefore, your Tinder matches are more likely to actually have some level of attraction you).
Now, having screened for basic attractiveness (which is still a prerequisite even in traditional relationships), you can use messaging through Tinder (essentially the same process as texting) to screen for “other intangibles”. If those also align, it is again the same process as if you used the more traditional texting, to set up a date.
A sidenote: In theory other forms of online dating also have many of the same competitive advantages as Tinder, but in practice Tinder just has WAY more potential matches on it, including way more girls that are considered traditionally attractive.
I think instead of asking, you should tell her what you want, and see if she agrees. That way seem confident and assertive, instead of the other way around.
seems*
Take the lead my man, that’s what women want.
Maybe instead of calling, texting, or Tinder-ing…ask in person?
The GIF made the whole thing worthwhile.
The eye roll is, at least for me, over the idea that picking up a tab is seen as an investment, i.e. money spent for which you expect to see a return, in this case a return over and beyond simply having a good time with another person. Sure it’s reasonable to lament spending money on a dead end, but to view everything as this kind of transaction makes the whole idea of dating seem cold and distant, as if its purpose is to “take” something from the other person beyond the pleasure of his or her company. It implies a quid pro quo that is outdated and kind of obnoxious.
Beth addresses that in other article – the man buying everything is an outdated ritual. In the world of equality, why should the one party in particular be expected to pay? If equality is truly the goal then it does actually imply some sort of quid pro quo. But what would the guy be paying for? The right to be graced with the girl’s company? That’s not right. Hopefully not a chance to get lucky (believe there’s a name for that)…
I’ll assume we’re in agreement that it’s inappropriate for the man to be expected to pay. If you’ve done any notable amount of dating, you’ll also recognize the truth behind my previous assertion that there are still a large number of women who still expect the guy to pick up the tab. Are you suggesting that you’re suggesting that guys should simply be OK with all the stuff that some girls expect them to pay for? Or perhaps you’re of the opinion that guys should immediately write off any girl who seems to expect the guy to pay for her. If it’s the former, that’s a pretty tall order, and one that really enables the selfish, outdated expectations that some women still cling to. If it’s the latter, well, that’s just not going to happen – unfortunately guys aren’t always willing or confident enough to ditch girls who hold these types of expectations.
Add all that up, and you come up with a situation that makes it extremely difficult for men not to start viewing dating as a transactional affair to some degree. It’s very unfortunate and I don’t think apathy for guys who experience such feelings is not the right response.
As a king of the okcupid dating/tinder hookup community in NYC, blunted honesty is key here. I don’t know where you live, but here there is such little time (it seems) to attend to just your own personal time around work, that if you don’t quite understand how a person fits into your life yet, or if there seems to be a point in whch you’re questioning the reality of your relationship, as long or short or flimsy or stout you might think it is, lay it out, compadre. It certainly isn’t worth continuing to spend your time if it’s going noplace.
I think you’re either misinterpreting my initial comment or reading a little too much into it.
First, I absolutely believe that, in dating and in platonic socializing, paying should be spread out among the parties involved, though I’m not someone who cares enough to keep an exact tally and to make sure that everything comes out perfectly even all the time. I simply don’t care to bring that level of accounting into my social life. I tend to follow the everyone-don’t-be-an-a$$hole rule and things have worked out okay for the most part.
Second, the eye rolling stems from the fact that I never hear anyone refer to paying for a platonic friend’s drinks or meal as an “investment” because it seems implied that you’re paying to be nice and to have a good time and it’s really not THAT big of a deal if the friend reciprocates the gesture immediately because everyone went out and a had a good time so who really cares. It’s only when the idea of dating comes into play that we start looking at every social situation in terms of precise return on investment, the what-exactly-did-I-get-out-of-this mentality that I think has ruined dating by placing so much stress and anxiety on what should be a casual time to discern your relative compatibility with another person.
Now, you can come back and tell me about what “most women” expect and how that years of these expectations have socialized men to have certain feelings and … yes, I get all of it. And to a large extent I even agree. I’d roll my eyes just the same at a woman who complained that her date didn’t pay for her, because in that case she would be implying that what should be the casual social event aimed at gauging compatibility is actually this tense financial transaction that needs precise bookkeeping and an adherence to archaic rules of decorum, ones that positioned the man as the investor and the woman as the party responsible for supplying the return.
Both situations—a guy calling his money spent dating as investment or a woman implying as such by expecting a man to pay—reenforce the same nonsense rules and gender roles. Both are worthy of an eye roll, which I wouldn’t really call a display of apathy, per se, but rather a display of annoyance that people are still doing these things and thinking these ways. Ain’t got time for that ’round here. We’d all be happier if we just went out to have a good time and looked at whatever amount we paid as the cost of doing business in these United States. And while that’s hard given the history of social pressures and the power of these rules and roles, the effort to destabilize these ridiculous institutions starts with one’s personal outlook. Change your brain and the world tends to follow, or at least how we materialize and interpret the world.
And to qualify all of this, I’ve been married for three years and with my wife for 10, so that means, depending on your take, I’ve either done a lot of dating (which took place long, long ago) or haven’t dated at all because, c’mon, ten years. A date these days is the hour of TV we watch together after the kids go to bed. Admittedly, too, most 32-year-olds don’t find themselves in a situation like mine. I do a lot of well-intenioned eye rolling when talking about this stuff with my friends, most of whom still live in the dating world.
“…you may be surprised to learn that she already considered the two of you exclusive…”
Me to current gf over Chipotle:
“So, are you seeing anyone else right now?”
“I’ve been telling everyone you’re my boyfriend for at least a month.”
Yep, found myself with a girlfriend.
That’s spectacular. Best of luck to the two of you 🙂
I tend to follow the everyone-don’t-be-an-a$$hole rule and things have worked out okay for the most part.
I agree, it does work out ok IF the parties involved are not assholes. Unfortunately, as I’ve noted, many girls out there ARE assholes in the sense that they feel entitled to be paid for.
Second, the eye rolling stems from the fact that I never hear anyone refer to paying for a platonic friend’s drinks or meal as an “investment” because it seems implied that you’re paying to be nice and to have a good time and it’s really not THAT big of a deal if the friend reciprocates the gesture immediately because everyone went out and a had a good time so who really cares.
You’re talking about friends who, presumably you already have a relationship with; when I pay for friends, I know that it’s going to even out eventually, because they subscribe to the same ‘reciprocation policy’ that I do (ie. they aren’t assholes who expect you to pay their way.) Dates on the other hand, are frequently either strangers or acquaintances. Is it any wonder that people are more sensitized to paying for someone they don’t really know, especially when a major part of dating is to identify what type of person your date is?
You make some excellent points in your last paragraph, though I don’t know it’s appropriate to equate a girl complaining that a guy didn’t pay to a guy talking about dating as an investment; that is a cause and effect, and though the guy could attempt to take the more Zen approach you mention, there wouldn’t be a need to do so if the catalyst wasn’t provided by the girl. There is something to be said for the ‘be the change you want to see’ mentality, but there are also arguments against being the guy that paves the road, too (that’s probably of of the scope of this discussion though.) Either way, I think it does sound like we’re relatively close in our opinions on the matter, if not exactly aligned. I still do not agree with the eye-roll that Beth mentioned, but I do understand where both of you are coming from.
Agreed. Not to mention the phrase, “we’ve never really talked about this, but I’d like for us to have a conversation about how things are going between us.” sounds like the start to the most awkward conversation ever.
If I was going to broach the subject, I would try to find a comedic entry way into the conversation as opposed to the tone above, which I would be more inclined to use if I was asking my boss for a raise.
No disrespect.
agonizing over the subtleties of texting is the worst. don’t play that game.
Exactly, the conversation is just so damned AWKWARD and the odds of one or both parties feeling bad is so high. I just can’t imagine that it’s going to go like this:
“Hey where is this going?”
“Well I was thinking we’d be exclusive boyfriend/girlfriend.”
“Me too! Just checking!”
Someone is going to have to say “I like you as a friend” or “I just want to keep booty calling you when I have a little too much to drink.” Let it go gracefully, I say.
Nailed it, Beth! I also like the phrase, “just so you know, I haven’t been seeing anybody else.” It’s a nice precursor to those other things, and lets her know you’re committed if she is too.