Ask A Woman: “Let’s get physical, physical.” But not too much.
If you’ve got a question that needs the female treatment, chances are you’re not the only one who wants to ask it. Beth is our source for the answers. From opinions on men’s style to decoding the sometimes mysterious ways of women, she’ll take on a different question every Thursday. She also might provide an answer without waiting to be asked. That happens from time to time too. Click here to get to know Beth, then get in touch with her by sending your question to: askawoman@dappered.com .
Dear Beth,
I am in college and I play basketball recreationally. The other day I was playing a pick up game and two people asked if they could join. One guy, one girl. During the game I found it difficult to be competitive against the girl and at times I played differently because I, well, it’s just different.
I’m all for gender equality, but some things are just harder to do to women than to men. Men in our society are conditioned to be gentle with women in a physical sense. This makes it difficult to wrench a basketball out of a girl’s hands, push into her when trying to score, or defending her closely.
So how should I have acted? Do you think she would expect different treatment, whether she would like to admit it or not? How would you feel in that situation (both mine and the girl’s)?
Much appreciated,
David
Dear David,
I totally understand how you’d feel confused about this issue. Striving to maintain gender equality is important, but at the same time, we have to be realistic about the biological differences between men and women. There’s a reason professional sporting leagues are separated by gender–men are naturally stronger and faster. Elite female and male athletes aren’t competing at the same level. But it’s harder to make the call during co-ed rec or pick up leagues, where the skill level of a stranger is so unknown right off the bat and can vary so widely.
If I asked to join your game, would I want you to be gentler with me? Hell yes. I have never played basketball beyond shooting hoops in my driveway and during the b-ball unit in gym class. I stink at sports and have trouble staying on my feet while walking between my kitchen and living room. Which is why, in reality, I would never ask to join your game. I’m aware that you’d play a much more aggressive game than I’d be comfortable with, so I wouldn’t put myself (or you) in that situation.
Focker doesn’t lower his intensity for anyone.
I have to believe that a woman who actually sought out a co-ed game also would be aware that men are typically more aggressive players. Thus my feeling is that if a woman asks to play with men, she should expect that the game will be higher intensity than if she were playing with only women.
So a female participant’s responsibility is to make sure she’s comfortable with the likelihood that she’ll get jostled more simply because it’s a more physical game. What is a male participant’s responsibility? Test the waters–do you need to be as chippy with this particular player? If not, why do it? If you can still play a good game, still win, at a lower intensity, what’s the drawback to doing so? If you start at that lower intensity and find that the player is a worthy adversary, then dial it back up. Match what she brings, or go slightly above it.
David, it’s good that you’re thinking about this issue. You’re right, men are and should be conditioned to be gentle with women in an everyday setting. The basketball court is a little different, though. Do the best you can to balance respect for other people’s well-being, with still having fun and challenging yourself physically.
-Beth
Got something brewing in your life? Send me an email–style, etiquette, relationships–I answer it all:askawoman@dappered.com
I respectfully disagree, especially with the last paragraph. Men are conditioned (in American culture) to be gentle with women, however making this a normative statement, that they should, is further entrenching gender stereotypes. Why should a man be gentler to a woman in an every day setting? What does a man do to another man in an everyday setting that would justify gentler treatment? Or, what is different about a woman that she could not handle similar treatment in an everyday setting? I don’t see men being particularly rough with each other in any normal setting. I would say even a firm hand shake is a rare thing in an every day setting. To suggest women must be treated gentler in normal settings is to suggest that either men are generally rough or women are general incapable of handling every day settings with men. If it’s the former, men should be gentler to everyone in a normal setting – don’t single out the women. I know it’s not the latter.
I would argue the opposite. Treating women differently further sets us up to believe women are different. That a woman should be treated gentler in an everyday setting is the reason why we question whether a woman leading our country would be able to send troops to die. It’s why we question whether a woman can handle the pressure of being a CEO. It’s this very socialization we experience that makes us believe a slew of gender stereotypes when in fact women are at least as capable if not more so.
To the main question, I would argue not to treat the woman differently on the court, either, especially for basketball. Basketball is a game where, while height can be a significant advantage, skill can overcome height. Physical strength is not a significant asset – there are no football sized players in the pros. In addition, a woman who plays basketball plays with a smaller ball. The most significant challenge in co-ed is most likely to be the size of the ball, not the ability of the competitors. If a woman happens to be 5’1″, the fact that you’re a 6′ male is irrelevant as she would have the same disadvantage playing even high school level basketball against other women. By college, she would be playing against people taller than you.
I would go further and suggest that if a woman wishes to join you in a co-ed match of any sort, it’s because she believes she can handle herself and it’s patronizing to treat her otherwise unless she has explicitly said she wants to be treated differently. Pound-for-pound, woman are stronger than men. Don’t underestimate the 5’1″ woman who wants to wrestle you. Check out this month’s USA weightlifting cover – under 13 girls comp snatch 100 lbs: http://content.yudu.com/A2xlv7/USAWeightlifting0714/resources/index.htm. Page 3 is pretty awesome, too – I’d never guess it by looking at her, but she sure as hell squats more than me.
Until proven or requested otherwise, treat everyone, men and women, with respect and as an equal – on and off the court.
In the Gale Sayers autobiography he says that he was so competitive that during a pick-up baseball game played at the Playboy Mansion, he dragged one of the bunnies around the bases when she tried to hang on to him trying to prevent him from scoring.
“Treating women differently further sets us up to believe women are different.”
Men and women are different. There are basic biological facts that determine the physical and emotional nature of both sexes. There are obviously plenty of exceptions and people’s strengths and weaknesses vary widely, but can you honestly say that men and women are physically and emotionally identical? Hormonal, and even skeleto-muscular, dissimilarities clearly show otherwise.
I’m not making a qualitative judgement. I have no interest in debating what natural strengths may be advantageous in varying situations, but to pretend that men and women are identical in every way is misguided.
“Physical strength is not a significant asset – there are no football sized players in the pros.”
What are you talking about? For example, LeBron James is 6’8 and 250 lbs (ESPN)… that’s larger than most non-lineman NFL players in both height and weight.
Plenty of other things I could pick at, but this one stuck out as just a silly statement. In pretty much any sport, physical strength is a significant asset. The only variation is that in certain sports (golf seems to be a great example), you can more readily make up for a difference in strength in other ways.
Gender equality is ignorant. Men and Women are different. However, gender bias is also ignorant as you won’t know the characteristics and traits of individuals until you interact with them. But I hate when men or women pretend like they are all the same, etc. When playing softball or basketball or any sport where there may be some contact you HAVE to account for women the same as you have to account for a smaller, less athletic man or boy.
I play ultimate frisbee (where there is minimal contact) on the weekends and if you try play with a blind eye because all people are created equal, kumbaya etc… YOU. WILL. LOSE. If you whip the disc or frisbee full strength at one of the girls that’s playing, chances are they’re going to drop it or not even go for it and glare at you for throwing so hard. The guys will jump/leap/ dive for it and commend you for the power/distance/accuracy with which you threw. That’s just how it is. Doesn’t mean a woman couldn’t be a doctor and a man can’t be a nurse. It just means we’re different. And I think that’s a good thing. You can’t have diversity if we’re all the same.
I play in a co-ed soccer league and the rampant sexism is infuriating. Women are generally allowed to hack and kick men with impunity while men are called for the slightest contact on a woman. If a lady is going to hack me I should be allowed to shoulder charge her just as hard as I would a man.
I was given a good piece of advice in my more formative years that I have found
to be remarkably applicable to many instances in life.
Ask yourself: Does this really matter?
If the answer is no – Don’t be a dick
It’s a simple and somewhat crude piece of advice, but I find it
applies in a myriad of situations. Applied to this situation, one could
ask themselves “Is it really that important to me to assert my physical
dominance over this woman on the basket court”.
If you answer “no” than proceed in a fashion which would keep you from
appearing rude or uncivilized. Taken
another way, the pertinent query for this situation might be “Does my enjoyment
of my time here on this basketball court hinge on playing at my most aggressive
and physical?” Once again, if the answer
is “no”, then proceed accordingly.
Simple words, but truly a philosophy for life.
In any sport you can find a significant outlier. For every LeBron James, I can point out five Kevin Durants (not in talent, obviously). Weight is not indicative of strength. Were I 6’8″, I’d be around 230 lbs and I’m arguably in better shape than he is. I played college football, btw, and as a linebacker, struggled against lineman and running backs when I could only bench around 300 lbs (one-rep max, definitely not for reps). While LBJ is certainly a strong-ish man, and while there’s zero doubt he could play football had he chosen to, his weight does not indicate that he currently has the physical strength to compete in professional football. Unless you’re arguing weight alone, in which case, I’ll concede that point.
Yes, you are correct that the most gifted males athletes in the world will be larger, stronger, faster, etc… than the most gifted female athletes in the world. Were I LBJ, I still wouldn’t be patronizing to Britney Griner and play her any differently than a pro male player. The same is true at the amateur and co-ed level.
Please, feel free to pick away, I’m here all week and happy to continue with any point.
This extends well outside of sports. People pay very little attention to women physically abusing men in public, even laughing at the situation, whilst men even verbally abusing women in public will often provoke direct responses (people telling the man off, offering to help the woman or encouraging her).
This topic should bring out the best in the comments. Cue the Ultra-serious Rec Sports Are No Place For The Weak Bro Dudes vs. the Everyone Is A Gender Neutral Superstar Intellectualists vs. the Gender Equality Is A Construct Of The PC Elite Conspiracy Theorists battle royale. Can’t wait.
No two people are physically and emotionally identical, or otherwise identical, male or female. You are equivocating by taking the word “different” to mean “not identical in very specific ways”. When we say that women are not different than men and shouldn’t be treated differently, we mean that there are no substantive differences that justify special treatment. Yes, a man has the potential to be stronger in absolute terms (the total amount able to be lifted regardless of weight of lifter) – but in an every day context, it doesn’t take much strength, stamina, speed, or even intelligence on anyone’s part to drive their car to work or take the subway, or submit their TPS report on time. In this way, there are no significant differences, certainly none that would justify being gentler in everyday settings.
In the realm of professional athletics… weight is almost certainly indicative of strength. It’s silly to think that a professional athletes weight doesn’t correlate to his strength. These are the 1% of the 1% – the most conditioned people to walk our planet. Any professional athlete weighing 250+ is going to to insanely strong. Most of those athletes are going to be single digit fat percentage. That’s a ton of muscle on the frame.
Whether or not they should take it easy on a woman on the court is another issue entirely.
“Were I LBJ, I still wouldn’t be patronizing to Britney Griner and play her any differently than a pro male player.”
Okay, but you would absolutely dominate her.
I don’t think there’s a well-publicized basketball equivalent of this, but the Williams sisters once claimed they could beat any male tennis player ranked outside of the top 200. This was in 1998, so they weren’t ranked in the top two in the sport yet, but they were already establishing dominance, and their rankings were climbing quickly. They were known for a strong and fast game, similar to the men’s game.
They were challenged by Karsten Braasch, ranked 203 in the world, who was a decade and a half older, and known for smoking during changeovers. He played one set against each sister, and beat Serena 6-1 and Venus 6-2. He appeared to be putting forth a rather insignificant amount of effort.
The reality is that men, on average — and at a high level — are better athletes than women. This is not meant to disparage women, this is a statement of biological fact. This has no bearing on a woman’s personality, on her drive and competitiveness, on anything but her raw athleticism, but the fact remains that there is not a single sport I am aware of where women can compete at the same level as men. Not basketball, not tennis, not golf, not auto racing (if you consider it a sport) — nothing. Not even gymnastics or figure skating, really, though I wouldn’t count those as sports (but rather athletic competitions, which is distinctly different in my mind, as sports must be judged objectively, whilst gymnastics and figure skating are judged rather subjectively).
You think you’re in better shape than Kevin Durant? Seriously?
Well said, man. I’m 100% for equality, but people really should use some tact in situations. I remember playing a basketball game with a guy friend against two girls we were hanging out with. I will never forget the shame I felt as he took over the game when he realized we were down 10-5 and were about to lose. All the fun we were having was instantly sucked out of the atmosphere. We won the game, but lost the night.
I agree. In the context of “everyday settings” men and women have no substantive physical differences (emotional differences are less relevant to this conversation). However, this article is primarily about a competitive physical activity. I think most women playing a co-ed game would be (unpleasantly) surprised if I were to throw all 6’2″, 200lbs of myself in their direction. Basketball may be a little different, but if I were playing football I would be very apprehensive about tackling someone half my size regardless of gender (but, obviously, someone half my size if more likely to be female).
I agree with your assessment and conclusion. I’m not arguing, however, that the average or elite woman will beat the average or elite man, only that, generally speaking, women can hold their own and don’t need special treatment.
Obvious exceptions occur with different level athletes, but the same would be true if we swapped roles regardless of gender. Other obvious exceptions exist where absolute strength is a key part of the sport such as boxing or most positions in football.
Heartfelt Post of the day!!!!!
I like shoes.
‘dis gon’ be fun…
Don’t we all?
Don’t underestimate the hobbit readership.
Also of interest for them: http://www.themodestman.com/
Why not just ask or set the expectation up front?
In pick-up basketball, kickboxing sparring, rolling around practicing jujitsu, I tell female partners upfront that I will treat them like any other opponent and ask if they have a problem with that. If they do, then I will consider adjusting or not playing depending on how I feel and my relationship with that person (e.g., friends or just classmates).
So when I was a teen, I would play ball with my dad, his work friends, and other associates. I was the youngest and smallest by far but that’s how it goes, right? So one day, one of the regulars brought his two daughters to play. They were mid-20s, had played some in HS I believe and were built just like he was, short and stocky, not easily moved. Okay, teams get picked, a couple of us are on the sidelines watching. Boom, from the first shot, elbows are getting thrown on every rebound even the uncontested ones (which is how their dad played). They’re scrapping for everything (nothing dirty, just a little more intense than everyone else). Now, nobody said anything but every guy was looking around at each other with a look like “What the hell?” You don’t want to sound like you’re whining but they were operating at a level different from everyone else, like they were trying to prove their toughness.
Moral of the story: Pick-up/rec ball is designed so you can exercise, compete, and have some fun. It’s not worth getting a busted lip or broken nose because someone, male or female, wants to show how tough they are. No different than guys who play “jail ball”; take that to a different court.
lol. I guess that’s what he meant when he said wanted to “score with her”
This is just false and it falls flat on its face. When women sought after more physically demanding careers, such as firefighting, the minimum requirements had to be lowered in the name of equality. I would consider this special treatment. If, at that time, a man was training to be a firefighter and said he was incapable of lifting and carrying the required weight, he would be asked to go home. Potential female firefighters, on the other hand, passed the lower requirement and were then allowed to gamble with other people’s lives.
The argument is not about equality, it’s about recognizing obvious differences. Men and women are biologically, physiologically, mentally, and emotionally different. This makes male and female relations both beautiful and wonderful, and at the same time incredibly frustrating. Ignoring these difference is foolish and does a disservice to both men and women.
As PC as America wants to be these days, women just aren’t equals to men in sports that require a decent amount of physical strength, speed, and agility. I’ve been in this situation before and I wouldn’t play as physical as I would with a guy and I would be more careful not to accidentally hurt her.
I’m not trying to patronize you or anything, I enjoy a lively discussion and would like to hear your responses:
1. I honestly don’t think women could hold their own in a full-out basketball game with grown men playing as hard as the normally do. I think it would almost dangerous for most women. Basketball may not be as physical as football, but there is still a strong amount of intentional and incidental contact. Women are smaller and have lower bone strength than men (on average). An accidental elbow to a guy might have him woozy and in pain for a few minutes, the same elbow to a girl might be a broken orbital bone. In the context of a for fun pickup game, i’m not willing to risk me doing that just to win the game.
2. Women aren’t stronger than men lb-for-lb or height-for-height, we have advantages in bone and muscle structure that just make us stronger. The olympic record for men’s snatch @ 56kg is 138kg. For women’s snatch @ 58kg it is 111kg.
3. Sure skill can overcome athleticism, but the ultra-skilled girl that can overcome a man’s athleticism is an extreme outlier. In fact, she doesn’t even exist on the professional level. I remember Howard Stern’s out-of-shape assistant completely schooled a WNBA point guard in a game of 1-on-1.
4. If you had $1000 to place a bet, and you had the choice of picking a 6′ guy or a 6′ girl to play 1-on-1 for you, with no other information, you would choose the guy 100% of the time. There is definitely a greater disadvantage playing vs a 6′ guy.
It goes without saying, definitely don’t go 100% against two girls that are actually interested in
This is why I’m not bothering to go into further discussion. Not worth it.
You’re changing my argument from “generally speaking, women can hold their own and don’t need special treatment” to something more along the lines of there are no cases at all in which some women may ask for special treatment. Even after the straw man, your evidence is unconvincing for multiple reasons. In your firefighter example – are you sure that some women requested the standards to be lowered, or did you read that standards were being lowered to be more inclusive of women? There’s a major distinction as to who believes standards should be lowered. While a travesty of feminism, this point at least is demonstrated quite thoroughly in the pop-movie GI Jane when she’s required to use a step to get over a wall or required to sleep in separate barracks – not lowered standards she requested ( . I’m not suggesting this is actually the case as you did not provide the details of the city or municipality where this occurred, only that it’s a possibility and has actually occurred. But, even if women explicitly asked for lowered standards, is it at all possible the lowered standards were actually more reasonable than the original standards? I’m not suggesting that legitimate standards, especially those that people’s lives rely on should ever be changed for the sake of accommodation, but I would suggest that some standards are intentionally designed to exclude. For instance, I work in IT doing security audits. My job description requires the ability to lift 50 lbs from the floor to a height of approximately 6 feet. The heaviest thing I’ve lifted at work is a pencil. This “requirement” is placed specifically to reduce the number of handicapped applicants in order to prevent having to add an ADA approved ramp, parking space, etc… Is it at all possible standards similar to this exist elsewhere? Finally, suggesting that the standards for being a firefighter were lowered at the request of some women does not mean no woman could pass the original standards. This last part ultimately goes back to my argument. Women do not need to be patronized. If a woman can’t pass legitimate standards (which I’m guessing should probably require a person to carry another human up and down a ladder at the least), then just like a man who can’t pass, she shouldn’t be in that position. It is precisely this special treatment that you’re describing that I’m railing against. Women don’t need it. If she cannot pass objective standards, she should be asked to go home. Don’t provide special treatment.
.
I treat women on the court the same as I do men but I don’t have a particularly physical offensive game that would make me worry about hurting a woman when I have the ball. On defense, I’ll match their physicality whether they play the perimeter or the post.
I’m just going to reply to #2 quickly because I’m running low on time.
I concede this point. My assertion was based on anecdotal information from Team USA’s website about a power-lifter in 2008. The anecdote does not necessarily apply to the whole, though, as you’ve demonstrated.
You’ve made some valid points. Thanks for the clarification.
I kind of want to challenge Ronda Rousey to a fistfight.
thanks for the honesty and not caving in to the pc police
My general rule is to match their intensity. If they’re obviously playing aggressively, I’ll match that (without going overboard). If they tend to be less intense, I’ll tone it down a bit without pretending like I’m playing against a 4 year old and let them by me. My mantra for them and myself is that they should feel challenged without feeling fearful. Is it patronizing? Perhaps, but I find it works best in a majority of the situations.
Dear god you guys are patronising!
What’s with the talking about professional players and all that jazz? Obviously the people in the article aren’t pros, otherwise they wouldn’t be playing pick up! You play pick up to have fun and exercise, not to purposefully hurt people! She knows what she’s doing playing with dudes; if she wanted you to go easy on her she would say so!
Can all you guys go with the assumption that women are human beings capable of rational thought and effective communication and I’ll try to do the same to you- even when you trot out “facts” that “everyone knows” that are massive generalisations that are not relevant to this particular case!
Stop assuming every dude that plays sport non-professionally is the shining paradigm of physical perfection and that the woman is a delicate fragile flower in need of protecting and is only there to impress someone!
He said she asked to join in; I think we can assume that she observed them play first and assessed that she was capable of handling it. Why not respect her decision? Women have had it driven into us since we could talk that men are physically better than us in every way, we KNOW the risks when it comes to playing sport with men (and there’s *always* the one guy who plays extra aggressive with girls, he’s usually the guy that, when talking about equal rights between genders, says ‘that means I can punch women, right?’). “Taking it easy” is just insulting to everyone involved. Treat her with the same consideration you would treat someone/would like to be treated with the first time, scratch that, EVERY TIME you play with someone.
Most probably she knows he was holding back and found it insulting/irritating/typical (or all three). Plus, anyone who things girls can’t handle aggressive play OBVIOUSLY has never played netball with 15 year old girls, that gets nasty!
(sorry I over used exclamation marks, I’m just SO frustrated- the arguments getting dusted off and trotted out here are the same excuse (oh, sorry, “reason”) that gets used whenever a man wants to justify to other like minded men the exclusion of women from basically EVERYTHING THAT EVER HAPPENED EVER
Amazing. Well said.
You also forgot to mention the false equivalencies being drawn, i.e. no one cares when women assault men, but if a man so much as shouts at a woman, everyone runs to the woman’s defense, because men suffering abuse at the hands of women is OBVIOUSLY an equally systemic problem and anyone who says otherwise is just being sooooo PC.
I don’t think it is about if they have a chance of winning.
It is about roughness, not about if she can win or not. I have seen some very intense games. Believe me, you don’t want to knock a woman down in a game, that is socially unacceptable. Even if she is okay with it, others won’t be. You seem to think we live in a society differenent then our own. There is still the social expectation that men don’t physically hurt women. I don’t see any amount of feminism changing that.
I have met women that could beat me in a fight (I trained at a MMA gym), so I know there could be a competitive fight between a man and a woman. Still I would suggest someone think twice before accepting a challenge to box a woman. Because, the social stigma is still there.
I don’t know if that counts as patronizing.
Anyway, some pick up games are intense, it can be no blood, no foul. I have seen some girls play real intense too. But this a situation, where it is impossible to please everyone. I think the “They know what they are getting into” argument is flawed. Not every woman does. Even when watching intense play. The fact is some women think that men should be gentle to women, and would expect that automatically, they aren’t going to shove her, knock her over and make her bleed, etc.
I used to play with a group of about 40 guys once a week. It was very competitive. Everyone had at least played in high school, some in college. One week, a random woman showed up and I got stuck with the assignment. I had the OP’s feeling of not wanting to get too physical. It didn’t help matters that she was smoking hot, and you really don’t want to get accused of anything.
Long story short, she was very good at coming off screens. Normally, I would have fought through them, but I went under because of the lady situation. She drilled 3 3’s in a row to end the game. Never again.
Never. Again.